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Thread: Book review of new Harry Greb book

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    Book review of new Harry Greb book

    Bill Paxton – ‘The Fearless Harry Greb. Biography of a Tragic Hero of Boxing’. McFarland & Company, Inc., Publishers (www.mcfarlandpub.com, 800-253-2187), 252 pages, softcover, $39.95.

    It’s amazing that until now, the only book that had ever been produced about Harry Greb was a 1946 work written by James Fair that was a mixture of fact and myths. Thankfully, Bill Paxton has rectified that situation with his masterfully written new biography about the man also known as “The Pittsburg Windmill” for his unique two-fisted attacking style.

    Paxton’s book is well researched, and loaded with 124 photographs, many of which most fans will have never seen before, and it makes for a nicely paced and interesting read. Greb’s most important contests are covered in detail, including all five of his meetings with future heavyweight champion Gene Tunney. Greb handed the Fighting Marine the only defeat of his professional career, giving him a terrible beating in their first contest. Although the record book shows Tunney winning the following four bouts between the pair, many folks who witnessed the matches felt that Greb won the second meeting as well, and deserved no worse than a draw in their third fight. Tunney later credited Greb for his rapid development from novice to a world champion, and called him the greatest fighter he ever saw.

    Paxton’s comparison of the performances of Greb and Dempsey against their many common opponents such as Battling Levinsky, Billy Miske, Bill Brennan, Willie Meehan, Gene Tunney, and Tom Gibbons among others, as well as his description of the results of sparring sessions between Greb and Dempsey, leave one with the impression that Dempsey and his manager, Jack Kearns, were wise to ignore Greb’s challenges for an official pairing between the two men. I found it interesting to note that in 1918 Dempsey’s management team chose to fight Battling Levinsky, a man Greb had just defeated, rather than accept Greb’s challenge.

    Undoubtedly, many folks will read that and say that Dempsey was too big for Greb, but as the author points out, Greb was fighting bigger and heavier men than Dempsey, and having no problems beating them, and easily defeated every heavyweight opponent he ever fought.

    The author identifies Greb’s first fight with Kid Norfolk in August of 1921 as the one in which Greb received a blow that eventually resulted in a detached retina, and the permanent loss of vision in his right eye shortly thereafter. In that same chapter he explains in detail what most likely occurred, and includes opinions from modern ophthalmic surgeons to assist in that effort. Remarkably, that means that Greb fought almost the last third of his career with one eye, including most, if not all five contests against Tunney, and during his entire reign as middleweight champion from 1923 to 1926.

    Like Sam Langford, Greb had over 300 recorded professional fights, and over the course of a four year period from 1917 to 1920 entered the ring a remarkable 134 times, including an even more mind boggling 45 times in 1919 alone. Tragically Greb passed away in 1926 at 32 years of age as a result of a blood clot on the brain the day after an operation to address injuries suffered from an automobile accident.

    The book dispels a number of common held beliefs concerning Greb, most notably that he was a womanizer, drank heavily, and rarely trained. Instead, Greb is portrayed as a devoted and faithful husband to his wife Mildred up until her untimely death in 1923, and as a man who drank sparingly, and only pretended to be a heavier drinker when it suited his purposes. Cuddy DeMarco, a stablemate of Greb’s was quoted after Greb’s death as saying that “Harry was always in shape for a fight”, “never failed to train religiously for a fight” and “was in the gym every day.”

    Paxton’s wonderful description’s of Greb’s unorthodox boxing style leaves one with a strong desire to view him in action. Sadly there is no known film of him in action. All that we have is a very brief clip of him in training for his contest with Mickey Walker. The author explains that there were four of Greb’s fights confirmed as being filmed, the first Tunney fight, his fight with Mickey Walker, and both title contests with Tiger Flowers. Unfortunately, the films were made of nitrate stock and it is believed that all disintegrated over time. Hope persists that somehow, and somewhere, someone copied one of the films onto a more modern medium and that evidence of him in action might one day surface, but to date that hasn’t happened.

    In addition to the well researched content and abundance of photographs, the book includes chapter notes, a bibliography, and an appendix with Greb’s complete fight record.

    I had a healthy respect for Greb’s accomplishments before reading this book, but even more so now. I highly recommend it to anyone with a desire to learn more about one of the most remarkable fighters in the history of boxing. I guarantee you will not be disappointed in it.

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    A wonderful review

    Had I not actually gotten the book this past weekend as a gift, no doubt this review would have inspired me to go out an purchase it outright.

    Everyone, do NOT be discouraged by the pricetag here.

    This book is worth absolutely every penny you spend on it.

    On one hand, the revelations that come flying in your face after reading each page, is somewhat sad. In that it is very dissappointing that a fighter as great as Greb TRULY is a mystery to all of us who even think we know something about the man.

    But on the obvious OTHER hand, you just soak up the information like a school kid learning a new subject for the first time. And it absolutely makes your head spin.

    I have searched for the past 7 years for Fair's book. I have stopped that search. Up to this point, the best source of Information that I have had on Greb has been from a couple of chapters on him from Peter Walsh's Men Of Steel, which is an another fantastic book that I recommend. It covers the Middleweight divsion up through the mid 90's.

    But for a complete and comprehensive source book on one of the all time great fighters.......You HAVE to purchase this book.

    Recently I have been spoiled with a slew of excellent books that have come out in the past year. Clay's book on Langford, George Kimball's book on the Duran, Leonard, Hagler and Hearns, Mike Silver's book the Arc of Boxing (whihc I find both amazing and maddening, sometimes at the SAME time), as well as a couple other books I had recently purchased.

    You HAVE to add this book to your collection if you even THINK you know anything about Harry Greb.

    Simply a MUST have.

    Hawk

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    Clay

    Mentioned this the 100 Books Thread, but I think it bears repeating here given your pointing this out:

    "I found it interesting to note that in 1918 Dempsey’s management team chose to fight Battling Levinsky, a man Greb had just defeated, rather than accept Greb’s challenge."

    In reading the book on Greb, an unexpected fallout from this was my questioning of Dempsey's willingness to face the the best of his time, specifically Greb.

    Harry WIlls not getting a shot certainly is more envogue to rip Jack on, because of the color line aspect of this. But Greb deserving a shot was every bit as on par with Wills's claim.

    The fact that Jack defended agiasnst Miske, Brennan, and Gibbons, over Greb who had indeed defeated all three prior to Jack defending his belt agianst them, should raise more than an eyebrow.

    The book will indeed raise my opinion of and placement of Greb in my Personal rankings. And while Jack wll not fall, his ranking may be more justified to me (many have argued I have Jack too low at both Heavy and LB for LB) as a result of some of this info.

    Hawk

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    Re: Clay

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    The book will indeed raise my opinion of and placement of Greb in my Personal rankings.

    Hawk
    Ah, good....then after you've had time to digest we'll go back to our Robinson-Greb debate!

    I had a feeling it would do this for you, actually. Once Greb's record is put into perspective it's like holy crud....this guy beat EVERYBODY! SEVERAL times!

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    Re: Clay

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    Mentioned this the 100 Books Thread, but I think it bears repeating here given your pointing this out:

    "I found it interesting to note that in 1918 Dempsey’s management team chose to fight Battling Levinsky, a man Greb had just defeated, rather than accept Greb’s challenge."

    In reading the book on Greb, an unexpected fallout from this was my questioning of Dempsey's willingness to face the the best of his time, specifically Greb.

    Harry WIlls not getting a shot certainly is more envogue to rip Jack on, because of the color line aspect of this. But Greb deserving a shot was every bit as on par with Wills's claim.

    The fact that Jack defended agiasnst Miske, Brennan, and Gibbons, over Greb who had indeed defeated all three prior to Jack defending his belt agianst them, should raise more than an eyebrow.

    The book will indeed raise my opinion of and placement of Greb in my Personal rankings. And while Jack wll not fall, his ranking may be more justified to me (many have argued I have Jack too low at both Heavy and LB for LB) as a result of some of this info.

    Hawk
    I think it must have been disconcerting for Dempsey to see Greb fight and beat their common opponents so much more thoroughly than he himself did. Brennan(5 times was it? With Bill maybe winning a total of 3 rounds combined?), Gibbons, Miske, Meehan, etc.....

    I see Harry being able to possibly beat Jack in a 6-10 round bout. In a championship bout I favor Dempsey. Hits way too hard and is fast enough to eventually tag Greb in 15 rounds. No middleweight in history is going to take a big Dempsey punch.
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 02-17-2009 at 03:14 PM.

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    I would agree Surf

    But landing flush, may very well never come into play agianst Greb.

    I've always read the quotes about Dempsey saying he never wanted to face Greb because of how great Greb was and I chalked that up to Jack simply praising Greb but not really believing the sincerity of the words.

    Kinda like Foreman saying he was scared agianst Frazier and Norton. Wonderful story telling George, but I ain't buying it.

    The more I read Grebs book, the more I'm buying Dempsey's words as actually being sincere.

    Hawk

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    I agree re: landing flush. Hard to do against someone so elusive yet so aggressive and tireless in landing his own lightning-fast shots. I just think 15 rounds gives a quick fighter like Dempsey a LONG time to find you. Eventually he's going to land a bomb. Just my pov.

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    I hear your point

    And while I am not questioning Dempsey's late round power, I simply wonder if he does not get worn down himself trying to keep up with Harry.

    It would seem like he stands a better shot at overwhelming him early and catching him inside the first 4 rounds, when he himself is at his freshest and fastest.

    I'd be concerened with discouragement and overall physical drain later in the bout.

    Hawk

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    Good point. Greb's stamina was unreal. I think only Bat Nelson is even remotely comparable.

    I just sent you a pm

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    Thanks Surf

    muchly appreciated.

    Hawk

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    Good point. Greb's stamina was unreal. I think only Bat Nelson is even remotely comparable.

    I just sent you a pm
    Since there are no clear films of his bouts to gauge the ferocity and pace; is your assertion based on articles? I just wonder if these articles that were written may over play the stamina issue? I'm sure he was fit for the day and the era; but are we to believe that HE was a freak of nature, almost NON HUMAN?

    BTW, Dempsey's best chance will be early rather than late if we are
    to believe that Greb had unreal stamina. Dempsey's power will always be there; but if Greb could take the shots early, some of them, then surely he could take the slightly less potent shots, later?

    Also, Greb was a middle and weighed between 160-170. His win over Tunney was great; but he only was 11 lbs lighter (still a bit though) and
    Tunney was no KO machine. If Jack was scared of Greb, then Jack was a wimp.

    Tunney aparently gave him a pasting in a later bout, and was a stone heavier. That might explain it!

    Has anyone ever seen his fights on camera?
    Last edited by walshb; 02-17-2009 at 09:51 PM.

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    Quote Originally Posted by walshb
    Since there are no clear films of his bouts to gauge the ferocity and pace; is your assertion based on articles? I just wonder if these articles that were written may over play the stamina issue? I'm sure he was fit for the day and the era; but are we to believe that HE was a freak of nature, almost NON HUMAN?
    It's based on articles, eyewitness accounts and tons of testimony from his opponents, all of whom describe clearly that fighting Greb was like fighting a hornet's nest. One that never tired. The testimonies are much too unanimous to discount. They all say precisely the same thing. A veritable mountain of evidence from many angles and sources.

    Funny you should use the term "Freak of Nature" because I've seen him called this MANY times in print. Opponents and sportwriters often wrote of his stamina and punch output and Harry was questioned about it in interviews; the interviewers wondering what his "secret" was. Dempsey himself described sparring with Greb thusly: "It felt like a shelf full of boxing gloves fell on my head". Jack Dillon said something similar.

    Read the book. It will give you a clear picture of Greb and his style.

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    It's based on articles, eyewitness accounts and tons of testimony from his opponents, all of whom describe clearly that fighting Greb was like fighting a hornet's nest. One that never tired. The testimonies are much too unanimous to discount. They all say precisely the same thing. A veritable mountain of evidence from many angles and sources.

    Funny you should use the term "Freak of Nature" because I've seen him called this MANY times in print. Opponents and sportwriters often wrote of his stamina and punch output and Harry was questioned about it in interviews; the interviewers wondering what his "secret" was. Dempsey himself described sparring with Greb thusly: "It felt like a shelf full of boxing gloves fell on my head". Jack Dillon said something similar.

    Read the book. It will give you a clear picture of Greb and his style.
    I suppose, because I was wondering, if his stamina for the time would be as good as the modern fighters from the past 20-30 years. I do believe years ago, the bouts weren't as non stop or pacy, on average I say.

    By years ago, I mean the early 1900s. I don't doubt his stamina for his era; but they only are talking in comparison to what was around at that time. Was it still the case that rds ended when a knock down occurred?

    You seemed to imply his stamina was the GREATEST across all eras?
    Is that fair?

    BTW, I won't need to buy the book, I'll take all the best
    parts from you guys

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    Thanks for the reviews, guys. Makes me wanna get it. (Still working on reading Clay's great book on Langford. Thanks, Clay, for sending it to me at "IBRO prices." Ric

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    BTW, I respect that some writers have tended to romanticize and exaggerate about the fighters of the past. But like I said, to ignore the mountain of evidence that we have of Greb being a tireless punching machine would be like ignoring the proverbial pink elephant in your living room.

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    BTW, I respect that some writers have tended to romanticize and exaggerate about the fighters of the past. But like I said, to ignore the mountain of evidence that we have of Greb being a tireless punching machine would be like ignoring the proverbial pink elephant in your living room.
    I think I can agree there. It seems like too many 'coincidences.'

    I think the price is a little high for a 260 page paper back. 40 Euro is too much
    IMO!

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    Quote Originally Posted by walshb
    I suppose, because I was wondering, if his stamina for the time would be as good as the modern fighters from the past 20-30 years. I do believe years ago, the bouts weren't as non stop or pacy, on average I say.

    By years ago, I mean the early 1900s. I don't doubt his stamina for his era; but they only are talking in comparison to what was around at that time. Was it still the case that rds ended when a knock down occurred?

    You seemed to imply his stamina was the GREATEST across all eras?
    Is that fair?
    Here's an idea. Watch films of Tunney and Walker- both contemporaries of Greb. Especially watch Walker vs. Milligan. Then think about Greb throwing twice as often on average, and doing it for 15 rounds. That should give you a good idea.

    Oh and just for fun, compare Walker's average punch output to say, Bernard Hopkins. Tunney's to Klitch. That will answer your question as to which era has the superior punch output.

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    Also check out the 45 round punch-a-thon between Bat Nelson and Ad Wolgast

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    Sigh

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 02-18-2009 at 07:57 AM.

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    Also check out the 45 round punch-a-thon between Bat Nelson and Ad Wolgast
    Unbelievable! I've got selected rounds of that fight. I was watching it one night and noted that they were both throwing upwards of a hundred punches in round 30!!!

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    Thanks for the review Jeff but amazon tells me it wont be available till the 3rd of March still i have two other books to read in the mean time. So i will let it rest with them. Not sure if i spelt available correct. It don't look right to me, but its about 5.20am here in UK and i need some sleep. Still lucky i am retired that's a bonus.

  22. #22
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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    greb would give fits to any heavyweight ever for a scheduled 10 rounder. he may have simply been the greatest fighter who ever lived. interesting though-in the end , the one guy both greb and dempsey refused to fight again was, of course, tunney. good book on perhaps the best of the best

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    Quote Originally Posted by mike
    greb would give fits to any heavyweight ever for a scheduled 10 rounder. he may have simply been the greatest fighter who ever lived. interesting though-in the end , the one guy both greb and dempsey refused to fight again was, of course, tunney. good book on perhaps the best of the best
    Greb never refused to fight Tunney to my knowledge. He fought him FIVE times. Why fight another? I've never heard of any Tunney offers that were on the table that Greb refused. He was getting older and he had only 17 months left in his career after their final bout(and only 19 to live!). He already squeezed in an incredible 28 fights in that short time, including bouts against world Champions Tiger Flowers(TWICE!), Mickey Walker, Maxie Rosenbloom and Johnny Wilson. Not to mention a slew of top contenders. That's enough for an entire career, let alone a 17 months!

    Boy, are YOU hard on a guy! *LOL*
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 02-18-2009 at 06:03 AM.

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    And from the other side of this

    Long Count Aside, was there clamour for a 3rd Tunney Dempsey fight given Gene had beaten Jack twice now, and pretty conclusively on both occasions (let's remember, Dempsey was dropped in the 8th round, 1 rounds following the 7th Long count round)? It was nearly a shutout in the first bout and Jack from a rounds stanpoint, didn't fare that much better in the return.

    Not saying there wasn't ANY clamour for a 3rd bout, but was it truly justified and can Dempsey be accused truly of Not wanting any more of Tunney? Or rather was he Through with the sport?

    RE Greb, I wouldn't mind an elaboration on Greb not wanting a return either.

    Hawk

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    I think Dempsey knew after the two Tunney fights that he would never get back to what he once had been and it was pointless trying to take him on again. Both Greb and Dempsey have always been among my very top favourite fighters. My own opinion for what is worth is that both at peak i would take Dempsey to beat the smaller Greb. I was really impressed even though Dempsey lost almost every round in the Tunney fights at just how quick Dempsey threw that punch that put Tunney down in that long count fight.

    Of course as P4P fighter i would have to pick Greb over Dempsey he must have been something very special and arguably the greatest fighter ever.

  26. #26
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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    as far as tunney and greb and dempsey- i remember greb telling his friend grantland rice who wrote of it in the ny tribune that tunney was getting abit to big and good for him. it is not like greb to stop fighting anyone after a loss, he would try to meet and beat him to the end.. refusal may be too strong a word--perhps the money would have to be very,very good for greb to make another go at tunney. maybe dempsey was rich and fearful of eye damage -re greb and many others who recived a thumb and "mugging" to detach a retina- but tunney showed hm the way to that retirement. no i don t think greb could ever defeat dempsey in his prime-but with greb coming in at 172 or so-it would be very difficult for jack- and i doubt - that tex rickard believed greb had that much of a chance--probably the real reson that match was never made-rickard and money problems. i donot think rickard would gamble on a possible thrashing of a heavyweight champ on a big middleweight.[ dempsey knew enough to slow anyone up with focused body attacks and grind them down ala, arguello,duarn, chavez. until they came apart] greb in sparring was lifted clean off his feet by body shots with 16 oucers- still- greb gives any heavy hell for a time, and may very well have beat some of the best if he weihted a good 170--tunney in the 70s said he thought greb would beat ali. anyhow--if anyone realley deserves a claim of the greatest p4p ever--the tough scedule, the blowouts, the weight disparity -although greb often came in 165 to 172 when fighting light heavys and heavys ,the quality of oppositon seems to point to somebody like greb
    Last edited by mike; 02-18-2009 at 11:00 PM.

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    I'm not sure but I thought that I read in "Tunney Boxing's Brainiest Champion"
    that Dempsey had sparred with Greb, and couldn't lay a glove on him....
    I'll have to check the book out at the local Library again......

  28. #28
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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    greb gave dempsey a good speed workout which is what he was paid to do. greb, of course was not the only sparring partner up for work he was followed by mary farrell at least at benton harbor. they sparred three days in a row. dempsey went eight rouds the first day with bill tate first up for two, then greb for three ,then farrell for three. the second and third day dempsey cut down to rounds ,first greb for three then farrell for three. then they both fought three days later on the same card, along with sam langford. how's that for a fight night- langford, greb, and dempsey. previously in new york, they sparred three days straight but i do not know much of that.
    Last edited by mike; 02-19-2009 at 04:44 AM.

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    I'd be willing to bet that if Greb had stayed alive he would have made a comeback, fought a few tune-ups vs contenders, then clamored for a shot at Tunney's heavyweight crown. He would have lost the decision (too old by then), but would have made a great fight of it.

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    Re: Book review of new Harry Greb book

    This book is priced at over £30 here in the UK. I won't be buying it at that price.

    Does anyone know whether Steve Compton ("Klompton" on this site) ever finished his book on Greb?
    Last edited by Gallicrow; 02-19-2009 at 06:54 AM.

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