Cerdan/LaMotta

[jim glen]

NO Bodyblow,

Gilroy wasn't the greatest fighter in History, this has NEVER been claimed... what has ALWAYS been claimed IS;

" He MAY WELL be Britian's greatest MIDDLEWEIGHT."

You talk about 'robbery' his whole career was a Robbery and his losses that you refer to were always against the the Bigmen and even 2 of them were victories ALL documented icluding the 'other' questionable decisions! Is Bert the only fighter that isn't entitled to scrutiny over these decision, where as these boxing boards talk about such matters for literally hundreds of fighters?

As to Cerdan, Euro Trash and past their expiry date fighters...

Euro trash wasn't a phrase used then - "the divide" (generally speaking), wasn't as wide as people today have gapped it. TOP men were True & Worthy contenders! the best example of this is the WELTER cum MW Robert Villimain, who kicked ass in the States against Top MW's and in Europe & Britain found his opposition just as tough. Hell the little LW cum Welter (past his expiry date), Eric Boon gave him hell in an epic battle which was Fight of the Year. Could Boon or Villimain have done the same with McAvoy, Gilroy or Cerdan(?), from what I learned in my investigations the Board would never sanction such matches.

Once again Cerdan's AGE is overlooked, he was in and around the same age as these his american TOP foes, by many accounts Cerdan's peak was also I few years previous - I rarely hear people reference that EQUAL fact.

IT wasn't like today, they weren't Euro trash. In Britain there was NO Domestic level, the Lonsdale belt was 'likened to a world title. TOP men were sinply that, True World classed TOP Contenders.

P.S read Gilroy was here! - CLAY MOYLE has copies for sale and I'd be glad to send anyone who is interested a copy of Gilroy's ACTUAL Scrapbook, which in it's self is an absolute beautiful set of documents and collectors piece and of course full of the REPORTS, the facts.

I pick Cerdan simply because he was a great an amazing fighter, whose record accounts for that, and again against some TOP men both sides of the Atlantic and again the LaMotta fight footage shows CLEARLY a handicapped fighter who STILL survived and made an excellent account of himself, that Jake couldn't seem to take advatage of...

Bodyblow in life in general, I NEVER allow emotions or blood or friendship interfere with the Truth, PROVEN by Facts... MY DAD can be thanked for this. He brought us up stating; " I don't care if you are my son, my brother, my parent or my wife, if you have done wrong or are wrong, and it's evident or proven, then you are wrong and I will not stand against the Truth!" I have never forgot that and I live by it, ask my kids.

I especially had to have the goods before I did Bert's story, which I do, hundreds of reports. Anyway I have once again stated the reported facts re- Cerdan, European fighters, Robert Villimain and the LaMotta/Cerdan footage.

What more can one say, sincerely Jim.

[Dan1213]

NY Times Fight Coverage

[Dan1213]

Post fight news.

[GorDoom]

I begin with Body Blow: No insult intended, man, but BOY, you are so off base & misguided on Cerdan it isn't even funny. In trying to make the case for Jake, it brings to mind, Cheney desperately trying to justify torture by throwing out facts that are fundamentally untrue.

Claiming Cerdan didn't have an injury flies in the face of reality. LOOK AT THE FILM IN A DISPASSIONATE & ANALYTICAL WAY instead of approaching it with the 'tude that Cerdan was a fraud which is so incongruous a statement I can't believe it was made.

My father was a WWII veteran & also a professional boxer with 48 bouts under his belt before he was forced to retire do to the advent of the war. He saw Cerdan fight quite a few times during the war.

Now my old man tossed compliments & praise around like they were manhole covers. In other words he was very parsimonious in his flattery on ANY subject ESPECIALLY boxers.

He told me that Cerdan was one of the greatest fighters he ever saw. & my father was not only a veteran pro boxer but also an accomplished trainer when we lived down in Mexico in the 50's. He KNEW what he was talking about!

& this has been empirically been backed up by the many films I've seen of Cerdan in action. & I have every scrap of film that exists. My father also said that by the time he fought in the States he was definitely past his prime which makes his accomplishments even more remarkable.

I know he was only 28 or so when he got here but he had led a very tough & arduos(sp?) life & almost every athlete who went through the war was not the same afterwards. Of course there are exceptions, Ted Williams & Warren Spahn come to mind ...

The fighter I see on film is astounding, especially the pre-post war fights. Marcel was built like a bull but despite his physique he was a superb boxer, very fast of hand & foot who could box or slug at will with excellent power.

A couple of years ago CBZ writer & 25 year veteran cutman & trainer, Tom Smario came over to my crib & we watched all the film of Cerdan that I own. His reaction was MY God! What a fighter! & he thought that Cerdan would have had a great shot at a terrific back & forth series with Tom's idol, Sugar Ray Robinson.

That's saying something. Coming from two men who are among the handful of the absolute best fight evaluators I've known in my 52 years of experience working in boxing as a cornerman, amateur boxer- when there was no headgear & pillows for gloves - & as writer, managing editor & co-publisher of this CBZ lash-up for the last 15 years.

Bottom line, Body Blow, you couldn't be more wrong & keep in mind that ol' Jake is one of my absolute all-time favorite fighters & I have no animus toward him as you apparently do for Cerdan.

& you know it is possible to study both of them & come to the conclusion that while they were absolutely, completly, different fighters stylistically, they were both all-time great fighters.

GorDoom

[Surf-Bat]

[QUOTE=GorDoom]

He told me that Cerdan was one of the greatest fighters he ever saw. & my father was not only a veteran pro boxer but also an accomplished trainer when we lived down in Mexico in the 50's. He KNEW what he was talking about!

EZZARD CHARLES, WHO ALSO KNEW A BIT ABOUT BOXING, CAME BACK FROM EUROPE AND CALLED CERDAN "THE GREATEST FIGHTER I'VE EVER SEEN". SO YOUR DAD IS IN GOOD COMPANY.

A couple of years ago CBZ writer & 25 year veteran cutman & trainer, Tom Smario came over to my crib & we watched all the film of Cerdan that I own. His reaction was MY God! What a fighter! & he thought that Cerdan would have had a great shot at a terrific back & forth series with Tom's idol, Sugar Ray Robinson.

IKE WILLIAMS TOLD ME ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS THAT HE THOUGHT CERDAN WOULD HAVE BEATEN ROBINSON(AND HE HAD HUGE REGARD FOR SRR AS A FIGHTER!). HE POINTED OUT THAT ROBBY ALWAYS HAD TROUBLE WITH STRONG MIDDLEWEIGHTS WHO PRESSURED HIM AND THAT MARCEL HIT HARDER THAN THOSE MIDDLEWEIGHTS WHO SO TROUBLED ROBINSON AND HAD A BETTER DEFENSE AS WELL.

[GorDoom]

Surf Bat:

I do appreciate you backing me up on my assertions about Cerdan. Now, you knew Ike Williams??? WOW! Do tell .... PLEASE!

Another of my all-time faves. How did you meet him? Where did he live? What was he like? How was he doing?

GorDoom

[sr71ko]

Cerdan was a great fighter. I wish that he would have gotten a chance to fight LaMotta in a rematch, Rocky Graziano, and Sugar Ray Robinson.....this would have answered some legacy questions that I have about both Robinson and Cerdan. I believe that Cerdan would have beaten LaMotta in a rematch, destroyed Graziano, and Robinson vs. Cerdan would have been a great dream match up. It bothers me that Robinson never fought neither Zale nor Cerdan, but perhaps it was more about timing than anything.

[Surf-Bat]

Surf Bat:

I do appreciate you backing me up on my assertions about Cerdan. Now, you knew Ike Williams??? WOW! Do tell .... PLEASE!

Another of my all-time faves. How did you meet him? Where did he live? What was he like? How was he doing?

GorDoom

I met Ike at one of the World Boxing HOF banquets on the mid-80s. He lived out here in a bad part of LA, so I got lucky enough to spend a lot of time with him from about 1987 to the end of his life. In fact my first boxing piece I wrote was about him. It appeared in the Nov. 1993 issue of the now-defunct "Boxing Scene" magazine. I got to read it to Ike shortly before he passed. He seemed pleased at the way I culled certain quotes from our various conversations over the years and was able to distribute them throughout the piece. He told me that it was the best article he'd ever read about him. I don't know if that was true or not, but I can tell you that a puddle with my head floating in the middle of it was seen oozing out of Ike's apartment that day.

He was an incredibly humble, gracious man. Had time for everyone. When he signed autographs he didn't just write his name, but wrote you a whole paragraph as well(he had great penmanship)! He didn't care if the line stretched out the door, he'd STILL give you lots of time for pics and talk. He said to me several times "It's a great honor" as he indicated all the people waiting to get his signature and talk to him. Talk about a guy who never forgot his humanity.

[Surf-Bat]

I might be able to post my article here if someone tells me how!

[GorDoom]

Surf-Bat:

Send me your article as a PDF file to editors@cyberboxingzone.com Put Attention GorDoom in the subject line. I'll get it to Juan Alyon who you are probably familiar with from this board. He's our news editor. We'll publish it in the CBZ news & put a link to it here on the board.

After that you will have officially become part of our writing staff (certain perks come with that),

Welcome Aboard!

GorDoom

[Surf-Bat]

Thanks Gor. Sent it