Lil' Klit-Chagaev Results & Discussion June/20/09

[hagler04]

Ruslan did better than Ibragimov and this was a better fight. It's not saying much, but Ruslan at least came forward and tried. He never just sort of ran for the distance.

I completly disagree. I had Ibragimov winning 3 rounds in their fight b/c he had Wlad in a much more defensive shell in their fight than Chagaev, I think notably b/c Sultan was quicker than Ruslan. I didn't have Chagaev winning a minute of today's fight let alone a round. He just plodded backward and ate jabs and right hands all night, I think there were rounds in which Ruslan threw less than 15 punches in the round. I don't know if a Trevor Berbick could have beaten Klitschko but he sure as hell would've been throwing more punches than Ruslan did.
Seeing how bad Chagaev looked in his last two fights, I'm not surprised Wlad potshotted him to death.

[Overhand_Right]

Hopefully Chags now hangs his gloves up like Ibragimov - nobody ever wants to see these guys again.

[Julian Jackson]

I couldn't agree more. Horrible fight. But hopefully, just hopefully, we have removed at least one bum (Chagaev) from television coverage permanently. Unless, of course, they want to feature him in a non-boxing reality tv show discussing Uzbek hookers and how he most likely got hepatitis. It could be funnier than Borat.

[greek1237]

Dont know what more you what Wlad to do in that fight? He beat him up pretty good, drop him, cut up his face, beat Chagaev from ring post to ring post, and had Chagaev lose heart. I think after the 2nd round, he knew he relly had no chance.

Yes it is a weak era, but I also dont think Wlad is as bad of a fighter as you guys claim. And No David Haye is not going to win had he been there.

Wlad is faceing the best there is out there, and yes the best is one of the weakness eras, but he trys to gets these fights with all the ABC bs politics, He got the fight, but no WBA belt.

He at least gets these guys in the ring, and shrinks the divsion. He all ready beat Peter, Rahamn, Ibragimov, Brewster in a rematch, and now Chagaev, He is fighting the top guys out there, there is not much more you can ask of a guy imo.
If Haye gets past VK(I dont think so) He get his shot again imo.

Now dont get me wrong, non of these guys would be top ten in past eras, but as I said before, with poltics, and the state of the divsion, Wlad is doing the best he could in cleaning up the division. All he needs is to beat Vaulv and Ruiz and maybe Old Holyfiled, but good luck in getting them in the ring lol.

[kikibalt]

Li'l Klit fight are all stinking fights, as bad as the guys he is fighting are, you would think he would go out and and fight like a true champion instand of stinking the joint out.

[diggity]

Well, so much for my boxing optimism as the sport yet again brings me right down to reality. I expected a somewhat dull fight from Ibragimov but I did not expect this from Chagaev. I'm with Cliff that this fight was easier to watch but still very disappointing nonetheless. You have to give it to Wlad's management, they knew what they were doing in letting Chagaev in there. Valuev must be kicking himself after seeing what went down. Maybe Chagaev was not at his best any more but something must be said for Wlad being able to render him so utterly useless.

I have never boxed before so I know this is easier said than done. For the life of me I cannot understand how aggressive fighters like Ibrag & Chag clam up for so many rounds in the face of someone like Wlad who is known to have NO chin & never at any point do they decide to just go for broke & make it a messy fight? I mean, 8 lopsided shutout rounds would call for a little desperation in my book. I would much rather go out on my back & make it look like I tried that to stink up the place like these 2 jokers did.

I didn't watch this fight live but I am never making it a point to watch a WK fight live ever again. This fight was shades of Lewis-Tua to me. Pure heavyweight puke.

[Crold1]

For the life of me I cannot understand how aggressive fighters like Ibrag & Chag clam up for so many rounds in the face of someone like Wlad who is known to have NO chin & never at any point do they decide to just go for broke & make it a messy fight?

Getting it with one of the hardest jabs in Heavyweight history, and one that has gotten better in the last couple years, has a lot to do with it.

[diggity]

And I'm sure it does.

[hagler04]

Well, so much for my boxing optimism as the sport yet again brings me right down to reality. I expected a somewhat dull fight from Ibragimov but I did not expect this from Chagaev. I'm with Cliff that this fight was easier to watch but still very disappointing nonetheless. You have to give it to Wlad's management, they knew what they were doing in letting Chagaev in there. Valuev must be kicking himself after seeing what went down. Maybe Chagaev was not at his best any more but something must be said for Wlad being able to render him so utterly useless.

I have never boxed before so I know this is easier said than done. For the life of me I cannot understand how aggressive fighters like Ibrag & Chag clam up for so many rounds in the face of someone like Wlad who is known to have NO chin & never at any point do they decide to just go for broke & make it a messy fight? I mean, 8 lopsided shutout rounds would call for a little desperation in my book. I would much rather go out on my back & make it look like I tried that to stink up the place like these 2 jokers did.

I didn't watch this fight live but I am never making it a point to watch a WK fight live ever again. This fight was shades of Lewis-Tua to me. Pure heavyweight puke.

If you watch Chagaev and Ibragimov vs elite comp, they aren't as aggressive as they are vs the Rob Calloways and Al Coles of the world. Sultan fought Briggs and Holyfield like a flush punch from either would shake the earth, and Chagaev was backing up often vs the likes of Virchis, Skelton and Drummond. There are clear exceptions like Jirov but it really seems like many of the Euro fighters have a different mentality than fighters across the pond . . .they follow a certain gameplan, but if it doesn't work they just lose heart and get lost in there . . .they don't naturally just FIGHT. I have yet to see any fight between two Eastern-European heavyweights in a real heart-testing slugfest. Maskaev and Lyakovich had a few vs other Americans but they were transplants who lived and trained in the U.S. with American trainers for most of their pro careers.
This isn't meant to be some sort of slant vs a certain nationality, just a serious observation I've made the past few years, I truly think there is a cultural difference here. The approach to boxing is different.

[Crold1]

This isn't meant to be some sort of slant vs a certain nationality, just a serious observation I've made the past few years, I truly think there is a cultural difference here. The approach to boxing is different.

I think there is a lot to be said for this...remember the way Vitali tried to make a point about not quitting again on an injury against Lewis...I feel like it's almost Kirk vs. Spock (i.e. making logical decisions over emotional response).

[diggity]

I agree. Good points all.

[prodigious1]

Chagaev was overrated coming into this thing. He never had a chance at doing anything but what he did. Good on Klit for exposing him, but god damn, we've seen yesterdays fight waaay too many times for it to be any fun.

Bring on Haye or anyone else who will actually try. Chag looked like he wanted out after 3 or 4 rounds.

[rocky111]

Moving forward against a guy with the gifts this guy has is hard cause he hits so hard and straight and coming forward you actually make him hit harder if he lands. You try to hook and hes in between your shots like a torpedo. Like Monzon he intimidates. Hes beatable cause his chin is suspect. But its gonna take some kind of effort ala Dempsey v Willard or Tyson at his peak. I really think even Ali would have a tuff time with this guy cause he takes away alot of what Ali had with his height and jab, like Willard took away Jack Johnsons uppercut. Stand in front of Wlad and boxing him is hard. The guy has become better. Boring? Well Monzon was more boring than Rocky Graziano or Tommy Hearns but he'd beat them both. Its about the W I guess.

[prodigious1]

The difference between Monzon and Klit (besides the overall greatness) is Carlos had a left hook and wasn't afraid of anyone. He also had a great chin. Wlad has made many forget about his paper machee chin because of the putrid competition he faces. Which, of course, isn't entirely his fault.

It hurts me to hear the two names in the same sentence, I admit.

Seriously, good for Wlad. He beat Ruslan Chagaev. Add Chag to the list of the pitiful, but don't make him out to be anything good or special.

Cliff and I are in agreement that Wlad would have been a top tenner in any era... what do you guys think?

I go lower top ten, but top ten nonetheless.

[Crold1]

The difference between Monzon and Klit (besides the overall greatness) is Carlos had a left hook and wasn't afraid of anyone. He also had a great chin. Wlad has made many forget about his paper machee chin because of the putrid competition he faces. Which, of course, isn't entirely his fault.

It hurts me to hear the two names in the same sentence, I admit.

Seriously, good for Wlad. He beat Ruslan Chagaev. Add Chag to the list of the pitiful, but don't make him out to be anything good or special.

Cliff and I are in agreement that Wlad would have been a top tenner in any era... what do you guys think?

I go lower top ten, but top ten nonetheless.

WITH the caveat that lots of dudes have been in Heavy top tens over the years. In some eras, Wlad could have been a champion; in others, he hovers around nine and probably retires early. But he'd have always been a contender.

[diggity]

I used to fee that way but now I have a hard time saying Wlad would truthfully contend in any era. Firstly because I don't think Wlad would have the opportunity to get as good as he is had he fought in another era. He would have been cleaned out by his 20-something fight IMO. If you want to take Wlad as he is right now, boring, slows fights down, smothers his opponent in close, etc, maybe he would outlast some people but the fights would suck all the same. I have a hard time wanting to glorify someone who is so big who is so safety first. Lewis at least gave us a dog fight or 2 before he starting putting the fans to sleep in his later fights.

[prodigious1]

Yeah, even though I feel he could have contended, the guys above him surely would have cleaned his clock more often than not.

As to Lewis...

Wlad vs the Mercer Holy and/or Lewis faced...

what ya think?

I'm pretty sure a 40 year old Ray busted up his eyes with that underrated jab. It would be interesting at least.

[diggity]

I've said from way back when they fought that Mercer cleans him out.

[vic_roc_13]

This was a one sided "YAWNER".

[hagler04]

I've said from way back when they fought that Mercer cleans him out.

The sad thing is that Mercer was the last heavyweight Klitschko has faced who had a good jab (Rahman was more shot than Clyde Barrow) . . .even Thompson with his slow push push jab bothered Wlad by sticking it out consistently. Wlad has been beating either southpaws who just paw with the right and use it as a catcher's mitt (Ibragimov, Chagaev) or plodders who just push with whatever straight left they do use (Brock, Peter, Austin)

I think the Mercer who gave Lennox hell knocks out Wlad early (no way Klitschko survives some of those early flurries Ray set up with the double jab) and I even see Klitschko having serious issues with peak versions of Witherspoon, Williams and Pinklon Thomas, all athletic guys who had quick, snapping lefts. One of the best ways to offset a great jabber is to time it with your own jab, and use a double or triple to get inside if you're the smaller man.

[diggity]

& more importantly, Mercer had power, balls & a good chin to back him up.

[hawk5ins]

I just had to call my optometrist to schedule an appt. ASAP.

Did I read in this thread, comparisons made of Monzon and Ali with Wlad?

The only Time I EVER want to read Klit's name in the same sentence with Monzon and Ali is if the sentence were to read like this: "No WAY does Wlad's name ever belong in the same Sentence as Carlos Monzon or Muhammad Ali."

Hawk

[evander]

& more importantly, Mercer had power, balls & good chin to back him up.

Agreed,

Even the Mercer that was in there with Vlad gave him problems. That was the 1st time I saw a hint of that " I quit look" from Vlad, bacause Mercer was getting to him with the Jab. The Mercer of 1995 would have destroyed Vlad.

[diggity]

Wlad got marked up pretty good in that fight by Mercer's jab. Probably even more so than all his subsequent fights when I think about it. Wlad's skin would never last a full fight with a Mercer of '95.

[mrbig1]

Wlad got marked up pretty good in that fight by Mercer's jab. Probably even more so than all his subsequent fights when I think about it. Wlad's skin would never last a full fight with a Mercer of '95.

Good point Sir, Mercer is lightyears away from being a great fighter. Wlad could do well in other eras because of his size. I see a guy like Foreman mopping the floor with him. Liston with his 81" reach would have made Wlad face an easy target. I'm not even sure he could beat tony Tucker. The worst team in MLB would look great playing a high school team, But put them against the Redsox well you see what I mean. The little Chris Byrd or the fat and lazy Sam Peter is not would I would call a real test for any good Champion. To compare Monzon to Wlad is like Comparing my 84 year old Mother-in-law to a young Pam Anderson.

[kikibalt]

Rene, your PM box is full.

[evander]

Rene, your PM box is full.

Frank,

It's good now. Please try it again.

[rocky111]

No offense to anyones comprehension skills but I never compared Klitchko to Carlos Monzon in any way but STYLE. Guys call Monzon boring. Guys call Klitchko boring. But I compare them in the way they intimidate by mastering distance, using height, and dominating the middle with a strong jab and right hand. By the way Wlad has a fine left hook when he choses to use it. I also say he'd give Ali alot of trouble. He has the gifts to do so. Lets not forget Henry Cooper knocked Ali down and Ken Norton and Joe Frazier beat him. He COULD be beat. Klitchko as he stands today has the offensive skills to jab with Ali and give him a hard time. Styles make fights. Would Klitchko leave everything he has in the ring like Ali? That is a question yet to be answered. I tend to throw out defeats that good fighters have before they hit a prime. People get better and this guy has also. I just wonder that Americans and the British have a problem accepting that a Ukrainian is the best fighter in the world? I wondered what would happen when a Eastern fighter knocks off all the Americans and British heavies. They are conditioned to see Americans and mostly Black Americans as champions and mentally cant handle the changing times. You can only beat whats in front of you and this isnt the greatest boxing era, but there are good fighters out there and both Klitchkos are in the car. Nationality should never come into consideration.

[hagler04]

No offense to anyones comprehension skills but I never compared Klitchko to Carlos Monzon in any way but STYLE. Guys call Monzon boring. Guys call Klitchko boring. But I compare them in the way they intimidate by mastering distance, using height, and dominating the middle with a strong jab and right hand. By the way Wlad has a fine left hook when he choses to use it. I also say he'd give Ali alot of trouble. He has the gifts to do so. Lets not forget Henry Cooper knocked Ali down and Ken Norton and Joe Frazier beat him. He COULD be beat. Klitchko as he stands today has the offensive skills to jab with Ali and give him a hard time. Styles make fights. Would Klitchko leave everything he has in the ring like Ali? That is a question yet to be answered. I tend to throw out defeats that good fighters have before they hit a prime. People get better and this guy has also. I just wonder that Americans and the British have a problem accepting that a Ukrainian is the best fighter in the world? I wondered what would happen when a Eastern fighter knocks off all the Americans and British heavies. They are conditioned to see Americans and mostly Black Americans as champions and mentally cant handle the changing times. You can only beat whats in front of you and this isnt the greatest boxing era, but there are good fighters out there and both Klitchkos are in the car. Nationality should never come into consideration.

I think fighting style here is the point of contention and not nationality. If Klitschko was actually fighting like an Ivan Drago and blowing his overmatched opponents out of the water in a few rounds, actually taking risks once in awhile, he'd be much more popular in America. Fans here love Fedor Emelianenko because the guy fights like a beast; he's not afraid of throwing a 3 punch combination due to possible return fire.

[Kyoodle]

Traditionally, a criterion for mulling over a HW's inclusion in any Top 10 list has been the quality of opposition. Another...well, at least one requirement for me to use, is the overall impact of a given HW on the division and sport during his reign.

Unfortunately for Klit the Younger, he fails miserably on both counts. And before anyone starts bringing up Joe Louis' "Bum of the Month Club" to reject those opinions, keep in mind that Louis reigned for eleven years as undisputed world heavyweight champion (what's an "alphabet group"?) and made 25 freakin' defenses. And yes, I think a prime JL separates WK from his senses with very little difficulty. Please...if Mercer's jabs beat a good tattoo on Klit's mush, what the hell does Louis' do?

Enough of the unnecessary boxing history lesson....none of YOU guys needs one. All I'm trying (poorly at this point) to say is: there is no way L'il Klit or any of the other current crop of pretenders should even be mentioned in the same breath with the "usual" Top 10 guys (here's mine, in no particular order: Ali, Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Johnson, Tunney, Liston, Charles, Holmes, Tyson; let the flames commence).

In fact, I'll do Hawk one better: when I saw Klit's name a few inches away from Monzon's and Ali's in Rocky's post, my eyeballs literally popped out and FLEW across the room. My loyal Basset Hound--"Choynski"--flew into action, gathering up the errant orbs in his maw as gingerly as a lioness picks up her newborn cubs, and trotted back to me with them. Once I popped them back in I donned my late father's old welding goggles, said a silent prayer, took a deep breath and then re-read the offending passage. Again, the pressure was intense, but this time I managed to keep my optics in place, somehow diverting the massive buildup of adrenaline and douche chills my central nervous system was squirting out like a geyser, into my clenched, white-knuckled hands, which promptly sank into the formica finish of my computer desk, leaving complete palm/handprints not unlike those found on those shlocky, plastic "handcasts" of Ali that were being sold on eBAY in VERY LIMITED QUANTITIES!!! Okay, sorry about that. Just bustin' ya, Rock.

Anyway, I just find it ludicrous that this big bum, the REAL "Reluctant Warrior", who finds ways to drive more and more boxing fans away from the sport (except for those poor souls in Germany, brains twisted by years of Nazi-guilt and a fondness for black leather leiderhosen and Golden Shower vids), gains any credibility for his endless series of shit fights.

I'm not kidding: I must have spoken to a dozen co-workers who are fairly avid and knowledgeable boxing fans. Not ONE of them had anything positive to say about Klit-Chagaev, with most making a sour face like they just bit into a turd sandwich. The refrain "The heavyweights today SUCK" was heard several times, as was "Where's the next Tyson?".

Sad, sad stuff, man.

Kyoodle (gettin' back on his meds now)