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Thread: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

  1. #1
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    Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    At featherweight, two hellbent for leather sluggers.

    McGovern appeared to have the better chin throughout most of his career, but -- as is the case with many good beards -- once he had been badly KO'd, much of the granite drained out of it. Hamed looked to have superior speed and reaction time, but the few films I've seen of Terry show me a heavyhanded swarmer who would make the Prince engage him (which Hamed was never shy about doing).

    Who wins, and how long does it go? MonkMayfair.

    PS. I posted this at Rafael's site and didn't get a single response. I don't know if it was the sparse video images we have of McGovern or the general hatred of Hamed. Or maybe it's just a boring pairing. PL.

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    I'll go with McGovern

    based on Rep and the fact that Hamed could be hit and hurt.

    Pete, you finally got a response and the depth of what I gave here, it probably leaves you STILL looking for that first response!

    Hawk

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Naz was certainly colourful and exciting, but we must not confused exciting with effective. I think the younger Naz would have beaten MAB and perhaps the yonger, more boxing orientated Naz might of beateb Terrible Tel as well, this Naz seemed to be a boxing ghost, he left many opponents with a rather haunted look, at their inability to hit naz cleanly, never mind more that once, but Naz in his acredited prime had fallen in love with his power, and simply did not listen to wise counsel, either in training prior to a fight, or during the fight itself...and ultimately it was to cost him against MAB who simply used sound fundermentals to to unlock Naz and Turn Naz's unconventional Approach from usual baffling advantage, to mapped disorganised detriment.

    Terrible Tel will not Baffle Naz with science, but in turn will not lend himself much in the way of stand-back head-scratching consideration of Naz's shoulder Jinking glove waving antics, and thats the Rub for me, If you stand off of Naz, Try to box with him, "Exchange" with him, fence with him, you may enjoy moments of success, against this three-stringed Puppet style, but you also give him time to recompose and execute possiblly a cute execution...

    I generally think the top class pressure fighters amongst the feather elite enjoy great success against the prime but undisiplined Naz, from recent vintage i think Barry McGuigen would have taken him, Certainly Azumah Nelson theres quite a few others, and i think Terry McGoven is amongst them, perhaps on points allowing for the Naz herky-Jerk to throw Terry off on quite a few occassions, When you can punch as hard as Naz you can never count him out, but when i reflect on how tough but unremarkable aggressors like Ingle, Soto and McCulloch gave him problems, then i think Terrible Terry's chances are not so terrible in this match

    It,s a pity Naz was not more Humble and receptive to learning and honeing his natural talents, he could probably have become the legend of his early boasts.

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    Sage,

    From watching Marco barely break sweat yet still handle Naz would lead me to believe that Naz never beats a schooled and disciplined fighter like Marco.

    Naz was still in his peak years and was shown up as a man who lacked the versatility when his "power" failed him. He never beats a 126 lb Barerra and never comes clos IMO!

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Hi Walshb - Certainly a 122lb Naz was a will-o-the-wisp kind of boxer and at 122 Marco was a seek and destroy merchant, who did collect more than a few counters on his way to victory, this might not of been the foregone conclusion that many might think (?)

    Of course as they got older Marco matured into a great all rounder, a ring General, as good/great fighters should, Naz on the other hand, After the Steve Robinson win, only seemed to utilise his pure boxing ability against Jose Bedeo (?) he fell in love with the knockout but forgot the proper courtship methods

    I think the younger "Boxing" Naz against the Younger aggressive Marco is not a foregone conclusion for Marco.

    But as Ever, A baby faced Script-Ripper could of rendered me Red Faced in the extreme !

    Regards Sage

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    Re: Sage,

    Quote Originally Posted by walshb
    From watching Marco barely break sweat yet still handle Naz would lead me to believe that Naz never beats a schooled and disciplined fighter like Marco.

    Naz was still in his peak years and was shown up as a man who lacked the versatility when his "power" failed him. He never beats a 126 lb Barerra and never comes clos IMO!
    That's the very reason why I'm picking McGovern.

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    I'm not a Hamed hater. In fact I really enjoyed watching him he was exciting, flashy & totally unique. Of course that doesn''t mean I wasn't always aware of his limitations.

    I always felt that a controlled boxer like say, Azhuma Nelson would have taken him apart. With that being said here is how I see this match up:

    Hamed had more two fisted, one punch power than any feather in history. I saw him more than once off balance on one leg ko a guy with one shot. he also had other worldly speed.

    McGovern was Stanley Ketchel before Ketchel.

    The way I see it is this. If they fought in Hamed's modern era I see a fairly easy victory for Hamed. McGovern would not be able to use the same tactics thast he emplyed in his prime because a lot of them are illegal now. This would severely handcuff him.

    If they fought in Terrible Terry's era, conditions & rules, with the shackles off of him, I think he would absolutely destroy Hamed.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    I agree that McGovern would most likely win by ko, but this fight would have been wildly entertaining while it lasted. This fight would be lucky to last 5 rounds though. Hamed's speed, power, and unorthordox style would initially provide some challenges, but McGovern's grit and power would be too much.

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Everyone is able to provide examples from Hamed's career, but nobody wants to quote any relevant McGovern bouts to prove their point? It's all limited to fuzzy characteristics about McGovern.

    I recall a Hatton-Canzoneri matchup discussed on another forum, and it was the usual talk of Canzoneri having such a wonderful career and being much greater, and nobody wanted to recall (or knew) that Tony was having serious troubles with pressure fighters on multiple occasions.
    Last edited by Senya13; 06-26-2009 at 04:12 PM.

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Senya:

    Have you LOOKED at Cazoneri's record? I don't know what you are talking about, Canzenori was flat out one of the greatest fighters ever. As to trouble with pressure fighters, have you ever heard of The Whitchapel Windmill? The great hall of famer & the #1 fighter P4P at the time, Jackie "Kid " Berg?

    He was compared to Greb as a pressure fighter. The first time they met Berg squeaked out a narrow decision, the 2nd time he starched Berg in 3.

    So much for trouble with pressure fighters.

    Cyber Boxing Champion
    Tony Canzoneri

    Record (Total bouts 175): W-137, L-24, D-10, (kayos 44)


    Tony Canzoneri, along with fellow Lightweight & Junior Welterweight champion, Barney Ross, remains one of the most enduring & beloved fighters in the history of the sport. When you consider that he fought in an era of only 10 weight divisions with one champion each, it makes his career even more remarkable. Tony won 5 world titles in 3 different divisions! Featherweight, Lightweight (twice), & Junior Welterweight (twice).
    In 1927, at the callow age of 19, Canzoneri fought to a draw in his first title fight as a bantamweight against Bud Taylor.

    In 1928, he won the featherweight title from Benny Bass (W-15), only to lose it later the same year to France's Andre Routis (L-15). Two years later he won his first lightweight crown with a sensational one round kayo of Al Singer. The following year, 1931, Tony claimed the Junior Welter title by knocking out the legendary Jackie "Kid" Berg in three rounds in a lightweight title fight, then defended defended his titles against the tough Cecil Payne (W-10), Berg (W-15), Phillie Griffin (W-10) & the also legendary Kid Chocolate (W-15).

    In 1932, Canzoneri lost the Jr. Welterweight championship to Johnny Jadick (L-10) & also lost a rematch (L-10). Tony capped off the disappointing year by successfully defending the Lightweight title against another all-time great, Billy "The Fargo Express" Petrolle (W-15).

    Tony regained the Jr. Welter title from Battling Shaw in May of 1933 (W-10). Shaw had only held the crown since February when he beat Jadick by 15 round decision. Canzeneri went on to lose both of his titles later in '33 when Barney Ross decisioned him twice (L-10, L-15). He closed out the year by beating future Jr Lightweight champion, Frankie Klick (W-10), Kid Chocolate KO-2), & Cecil Payne (KO-5).

    In 1935, Canzoneri won his last title beating the great Lew Ambers (W-15), for the vacant Lightweight championship. The title had been vacated by Ross when he won the Welterweight title from Jimmy McLarnin. Tony defended the title once in '35 beating Al Roth by 15 round decision

    Canzoneri began 1936 with a series of non-title fights. The most notable opponents being his old nemesis, Johnny Jadick (W-10), yet another all-time great, Jimmy McLarnin (W-10), and Midget Mexico (KO9). In September he lost the title in a rematch with Ambers (L-15).

    Tony's last title fight was in 1937, when he again lost a 15 round decision to Ambers. Canzoneri fought on for two more years. He finally retired in '39 after suffering the first KO loss of his career to the star-crossed Al "Bummy" Davis in 3 .

    Following his retirement, Tony became an actor & restauranteur & was a well loved boxing figure in New York City; where he died after a heart attack on December 9 1959. Tony Canzoneri was absolutely one of the greatest fighters pound for pound in the history of boxing.

    He is a member of the International Boxing Hall of Fame.


    © 1996 The Cyber Boxing Zone. CyberBoxing Bio by GorDoom

    1925
    Jan 9 Henry Usse New York, NY W 3
    Jan 9 Peter Burns New York, NY W 3
    Jan 9 Joe Scalfaro New York, NY W 3
    -The previous 3 bouts were for the New York State
    Amateur 118 lb Championship
    *** PROFESSIONAL BOUTS ***

    1925
    Jul 18 Jack Gardner Rockaway Beach, NY KO 1
    -Some sources report "Jack Grodner" on 7/24/25
    Jul 25 Henry Usse Brooklyn, NY W 4
    -Some sources report "W 6" on 8/08/25
    Aug 5 Ray Cummings Bayonne, NJ ND 4
    -Some sources report 9/05/25
    Aug 22 Henry Usse Brooklyn, NY W 6
    Sep 12 Paulie Porter Brooklyn, NY KO 5
    Oct 3 Johnny Huber New York, NY W 6
    -Some sources report 10/10/25
    Nov 7 Henry Molineri Brooklyn, NY KO 1
    Nov 12 Harry Brandon Brooklyn, NY W 4
    Nov 26 Ralph Nischo Brooklyn, NY W 4
    Dec 7 Danny Terris Brooklyn, NY W 6
    Dec 23 Danny Terris New York, NY KO 4

    1926
    Jan 13 George Nickfor New York, NY TK 4
    Jan 21 Kid Rash Brooklyn, NY W 4
    Jan 26 Mickey Lewis New York, NY W 4
    Feb 13 Romeo Vaughn Brooklyn, NY W 6
    Feb 18 Al Scorda Brooklyn, NY W 4
    Mar 6 Bobby Wolgast Brooklyn, NY W 6
    Mar 11 Jacinto Valdez New York, NY W 4
    Mar 20 Tommy Milton Brooklyn, NY W 6
    Mar 25 Mike Esposito New York, NY D 6
    May 8 Benny Hall Brooklyn, NY D 6
    May 28 Sammy Nable Brooklyn, NY TK 5
    Jun 16 Sonny Smith Brooklyn, NY W 6
    Jun 21 Willie Suess Woodhaven, NY W 6
    Jun 25 Archie Bell Brooklyn, NY TK 5
    Jul 26 Manny Wexler Woodhaven, NY KO 5
    Aug 8 Young Montreal Woodhaven, NY W 6
    -Some sources report 8/09/26
    Aug 14 Buck Josephs Brooklyn, NY W 6
    Aug 28 Georgie Mack Long Island City, NY D 6
    Sep 20 George Marks Woodhaven, NY W 6
    Oct 5 Benny Hall New York, NY W 6
    Nov 6 Davey Abad Brooklyn, NY L 10
    Nov 13 Enrique Savaardo New York, NY TK 5
    Nov 22 Andre Routis Brooklyn, NY W 12
    Dec 17 Bushy Graham New York, NY W 10

    1927
    Jan 12 Joe Ryder New York, NY D 10
    Jan 22 Vic Burrone Brooklyn, NY W 10
    Feb 4 Johnny Green New York, NY W 8
    Mar 7 "California" Joe Lynch Brooklyn, NY W 10
    Mar 26 Charles "Bud" Taylor Chicago, Il D 10
    -NBA Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Apr 18 Vic Burrone New York, NY D 10
    Apr 25 Harold Smith Brooklyn, NY TK 3
    May 3 Ray Rychell Chicago, Il TK 7
    Jun 24 Charles "Bud" Taylor Chicago, Il L 10
    -NBA Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Jul 27 "California" Joe Lynch Cleveland, Oh W 10
    Aug 9 Eddie Anderson Long Island City, NY W 10
    Aug 17 Pete Sarmiento Brooklyn, NY KO 1
    Aug 25 "Iowa" Joe Rivers Kansas City, Ks ND 10
    Sep 2 Eddie Anderson Chicago, Il LF 2
    Oct 3 Tommy Ryan Brooklyn, NY W 10
    Oct 24 Johnny Dundee New York, NY W 15
    -Featherweight Championship of the World
    Nov 7 Billy Henry Philadelphia, Pa KO 2
    Nov 22 Vincent DiLeo New York, NY TK 1
    Dec 1 Ignacio Fernandez New York, NY W 10
    Dec 30 Charles "Bud" Taylor New York, NY W 10

    1928
    Jan 30 Pete Nebo Philadelphia, Pa D 10
    Feb 10 Benny Bass New York, NY W 15
    -Featherweight Championship of the World;
    Feb 23 Pete Passifium Brooklyn, NY W 4
    May 28 Claude Wilson New Orleans, La TK 1
    Jun 13 Vic Foley Montreal, Que, Can W 10
    Jun 27 Harry Blitman Philadelphia, Pa L 10
    Aug 28 Bobby Garcia Newark, NJ KO 1
    Sep 28 Andre Routis New York, NY L 15
    -Featherweight Championship of the World
    Oct 29 Gaston Charles Brooklyn, NY W 10
    Dec 8 Chick Suggs New York, NY KO 6
    Dec 14 Al Singer New York, NY D 10

    1929
    Jan 18 Armando Santiago Chicago, Il KO 5
    Feb 6 Joey Sangor Chicago, Il TK 7
    Feb 26 Ignacio Fernandez Chicago, Il W 10
    Mar 8 Cecil Payne Detroit, Mi W 10
    Apr 9 Eddie Anderson Milwaukee, Wi ND 10
    Apr 26 Sammy Dorfman New York, NY W 10
    May 10 Andre Routis Chicago, Il W 10
    Jun 4 Ignacio Fernandez Long Island City, NY W 10
    Jul 9 Phil McGraw Long Island City, NY W 10
    Aug 2 Sammy Mandell Chicago, Il L 10
    -Lightweight Championship of the World
    Sep 20 Eddie "Kid" Wolfe New Orleans, La W 10
    Sep 27 Eddie Mack Chicago, Il TK 8
    Oct 18 Johnny Farr New York, NY W 10
    Oct 30 Stanislaus Loayza Chicago, Il W 10

    1930
    Jan 17 Jackie "Kid" Berg New York, NY L 10
    Mar 4 Solly Ritz Brooklyn, NY TK 1
    Mar 14 Stanislaus Loayza New York, NY W 10
    Apr 1 Steve Smith New Haven, Ct TK 7
    Apr 8 Frankie LaFay Brooklyn, NY KO 1
    May 5 Harry Carlton New York, NY W 10
    May 14 Johnny Farr New Haven, Ct W 10
    Jun 4 Joe Glick Brooklyn, NY W 10
    Jun 24 Tommy Grogan Long Island City, NY W 10
    Jul 21 Benny Bass Philadelphia, Pa W 10
    Aug 26 William "Goldie" Hess Long Island City, NY W 10
    Sep 11 Billy Petrolle Chicago, Il L 10
    Nov 14 Al Singer New York, NY KO 1
    -Lightweight Championship of the World

    1931
    Jan 26 Johnny Farr New Orleans, La ND 10
    Feb 25 Joey Kaufman Jersey City, NJ TK 1
    Mar 6 Sammy Fuller Boston, Ma L 10
    Mar 23 Tommy Grogan Philadelphia, Pa W 10
    Apr 24 Jack "Kid" Berg Chicago, Il KO 3
    -Lightweight Championship of the World;
    Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
    Jun 25 Herman Perlick New Haven, Ct W 10
    Jul 13 Cecil Payne Los Angeles, Ca W 10
    -Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
    Sep 10 Jackie "Kid" Berg New York, NY W 15
    -Lightweight Championship of the World;
    Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
    Oct 29 Phillie Griffin Newark, NJ W 10
    -Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
    Nov 20 Kid Chocolate New York, NY W 15
    -Lightweight Championship of the World;
    Junior Welterweight Championship of the World

    1932
    Jan 18 Johnny Jadick Philadelphia, Pa L 10
    -Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
    Feb 15 Lew Massey Philadelphia, Pa W 10
    Apr 4 Ray Kiser New Orleans, La W 10
    May 23 Battling Gizzy North Braddock, Pa TK 5
    Jun 16 Harry Dublinsky Chicago, Il W 10
    Jul 18 Johnny Jadick Philadelphia, Pa L 10
    -Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
    Sep 29 Lew Kersch Long Island City, NY TK 3
    Oct 12 Frankie Petrolle Brooklyn, NY KO 3
    Nov 4 Billy Petrolle New York, NY W 15
    -Lightweight Championship of the World

    1933
    Feb 3 Billy Townsend New York, NY KO 1
    Feb 23 Pete Nebo Miami, Fl W 10
    Apr 20 Wesley Ramey Grand Rapids, Mi L 10
    May 21 Battling Shaw New Orleans, La W 10
    -Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
    (as recognized by Louisiana state)
    Jun 23 Barney Ross Chicago, Il L 10
    -Lightweight Championship of the World;
    Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
    Sep 12 Barney Ross New York, NY L 15
    -Lightweight Championship of the World;
    Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
    Oct 28 Frankie Klick Brooklyn, NY W 10
    Nov 24 Kid Chocolate New York, NY KO 2
    Dec 4 Cecil Payne Cleveland, Oh KO 5
    Dec 15 Anacleto Locatelli New York, NY W 10

    1934
    Feb 2 Anacleto Locatelli New York, NY W 12
    Mar 1 Pete Nebo Kansas City, Mo W 10
    Mar 13 Alberto "Baby" Arizmendi Los Angeles, Ca W 10
    Jun 28 Frankie Klick Brooklyn, NY TK 9
    Aug 28 Harry Dublinsky Brooklyn, NY L 10
    -Some sources report 8/29/34
    Sep 26 Harry Dublinsky Brooklyn, NY W 10

    1935
    Jan 7 Eddie Ran Newark, NJ KO 2
    Jan 21 Harold "Honey Boy" Hughes Utica, NY W 8
    Jan 31 Leo Rodak Chicago, Il W 10
    Feb 26 Chuck Woods Detroit, Mi L 10
    Mar 15 Chuck Woods Chicago, Il W 10
    Apr 25 Eddie Zivic Pittsburgh, Pa KO 7
    May 10 Lou Ambers New York, NY W 15
    -Lightweight Championship of the World
    Jun 10 Frankie Klick Washington, DC W 10
    -Some sources report "W 12"
    Jul 25 Bobby Pacho Chicago, Il W 10
    Aug 19 Frankie Klick San Francisco, Ca W 10
    Sep 13 Joe Ghnouly St. Louis, Mo W 10
    Oct 4 Al Roth New York, NY W 15
    -Lightweight Championship of the World

    1936
    Jan 22 Midget Mexico New York, NY TK 9
    -Some sources report 1/23/36
    Jan 30 Fred "Toots" Bashara Philadelphia, Pa TK 3
    Feb 15 Billy Hogan Brooklyn, NY KO 4
    Mar 2 Steve Halaiko New York, NY KO 2
    Apr 9 Johnny Jadick New York, NY W 10
    May 8 Jimmy McLarnin New York, NY W 10
    Sep 3 Lou Ambers New York, NY L 15
    -Lightweight Championship of the World
    Oct 5 Jimmy McLarnin New York, NY L 10

    1937
    Apr 5 George Levy Newark, NJ TK 7
    Apr 13 Frankie Wallace Brooklyn, NY W 8
    Apr 24 Joey Zodda Brooklyn, NY KO 7
    May 7 Lou Ambers New York, NY L 15
    -Lightweight Championship of the World

    1938
    Oct 17 Eddie Zivic Scranton, Pa L 10
    Oct 26 Howard Scott Jersey City, NJ W 8
    Nov 1 Al Dunbar Camden, NJ KO 3
    Nov 22 Howard Scott Bronx, NY W 8
    Dec 10 Jimmy Murray Brooklyn, NY W 8
    Dec 30 Eddie Zivic New York, NY W 10

    1939
    Jan 19 Wally Hally Denver, Co W 10
    Jan 27 Joe Gavras San Francisco, Ca TK 2
    Jan 31 Everett Simington San Jose, Ca KO 3
    Feb 7 Bobby Pacho Los Angeles, Ca W 10
    Mar 7 Eddie Brink Bronx, NY W 8
    Mar 28 Eddie Brink New York, NY L 10
    Apr 11 Jimmy Vaughn Bronx, NY D 8
    May 1 Jimmy Tygh Philadelphia, Pa L 10
    May 15 Nick Camarata New Orleans, La D 10
    Jun 5 Harris Blake Buffalo, NY L 10
    Jul 6 Joe DeJesus Poughkeepsie, NY W 8
    Jul 17 Ambrose Logan Brooklyn, NY W 8
    Aug 3 Joe DeJesus Brooklyn, NY W 8
    Aug 18 Frankie Wallace Long Beach, NY W 8
    Aug 26 Gerald D'Elia Staten Island, NY W 8
    Sep 19 Eddie Brink Brooklyn, NY W 8
    Nov 1 Al "Bummy" Davis New York, NY LT 3
    Record courtesy of Tracy Callis, Historian, International Boxing Research Organization

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    This is, of course, off-topic, but... quoting myself from that other forum:

    Bass gave Canzoneri hell in later rounds of their fight (despite having broken right collarbone in the 3rd round), but he wasn't as ferocious as Hatton, and was considerably smaller too. The Whitechapel Whirlwind gave Canzoneri a terrible beating in their 1st meeting. Blitman pressed Canzoneri. Routis lost the early rounds, but came back strong, Canzoneri tired and got badly battered and outpunched in the later rounds. There are more examples.

  12. #12
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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Berg did not give Canzoneri a beating in their first fight. I've seen the film. Sorry man, but you are wrong about Canzoneri.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Here is the thread Senya is referring to for those that want to read it. I put forth the case for Canzoneri there.

    http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/...ad.php?t=98276

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    I presume you have seen their 2nd meeting, I haven't heard of film of their 1st fight (which Tony lost) being available. Am I wrong about what? You have seen reports of the fights I mentioned? Which other Canzoneri bouts that lasted the full or nealy-full distance where his opponent swarmed him hard, but Tony still won, were there that you know of?

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    The Fargo Express, Billy Petrolle who also beat McLarnin & Berg.

    I saw the film of the first Canzoneri-Berg fight at this great little bar that used to be in the South Of Market area of San Francisco that finally closed in the early 70's.

    The guy who owned it, Norm Stone, had a collection of fight films that was unbelievable. He used to run them constantly in his bar which was a big hangout for the Bay Area boxing crowd. I actually saw segments of the first two Zale-Graziano fights that were supposedly never filmed.

    The one film that he didn't have which I would have given my left nut for was Greb-Walker. I don't know what happened to all the films he had. He passed away soon after closing his bar.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Did he have any Tiger Jack Fox stuff? PeteLeo.

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Yup he did. it was amazing he had film of a lot of stuff that was supposedly never filmed. A good portion was from hand held cameras I guess because it obviously wasn't broadcast stuff.

    He even had some Ike Williams fights that I've never seen before or since. If I remember correctly one was against Willie Joyce & the other was a losing effort to Bob Montgomery, I believe. but I could be mixing up fights - this was about a long 45 years ago the last time I went to the bar, '65 or '66 & the synapses don't snap to like they used to....

    If I had known then that I would have started the CBZ decades later I would have made a real effort to get a hold of that film. It's too bad my old man isn't still alive, he was tight with Norm & his family & he would know how to get a hold of them & maybe locate the film. I have no idea how to get a hold of them. I remember he had two daughters so they're probably married now & with different last names.

    Selah....

    GorDoom

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Damn, I'd like to see those films.

    Maybe we should make it, like a CBZ Project or something to track them down? PeteLeo.

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Except that, according to 3 next-day reports of the fight I have, Petrolle simply plodded around, following Canzoneri, not fast or durable enough to pressure him hard that night. Maybe only for a minute in the 8th round and some moments in the 10th.

    As for Canzoneri-Berg I. Sorry, but I have to doubt your memory of what you had seen on film, it is too far in the past for you to have good enough recollections of it, unless you made notes immediately after watching it and have found and read them again when you posted your message. Next-day reports prove Tony took a beating.

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    What great fighters has Hatton beat compared to Canzi? He has nothing on his resume so impressive so as to make me believe he would even belong in the same ring, let alone "beat" Tony.

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    I guess I haven't made my point clear enough. Whenever match-ups between old-timers and modern (semi-modern) boxers are being discussed, on this forum, and on any other I've been at, it is oranges and apples most of the time. For modern fighters their strong and weak points, and stylistic analysis are being discussed based on actual fights. Old-timers instead get a list of names of their best opponents, and fuzzy descriptions, great, tough, skillful, clever, whatever. No actual fights get a mention that can be relevant stylistically to the matchup. Because most people haven't actually researched those old-timers and almost all they know is based on secondary sources, poorly-researched articles written by other people.

    McGovern was greater, tougher, more skillful and clever than Young Corbett. Did that stop Corbett from knocking him out twice?

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    RE: Naz-McG. Terry was probably the hardest hitting featherweight champion in history. He fought in an era of iron men and at a time when long knockout streaks were almost unheard of he managed to run up 18 straight KOs. He was a wrecking machine who decimated the lower weight divisions, kayoing the reigning Bantamweight, Featherweight and Lightweight World Champions within a space of 10 months! While also knocking out many top contenders in between those bouts.

    He destroyed clever boxers like Frank Erne, Pedlar Palmer, Eddie Santry and a faded(but still dangerous) George Dixon as well as power punchers like Aurelio Herrera(the HARDEST punching featherweight/lightweight EVER!) and Oscar Gardner. Overall he faced better competition than Naz and proved a lot more in his career. Naz's power would not be anything new to Terry. He's been in with more power and came out on top.

    Picture Terry instead of Wayne McCullough in there with Naz. Terry and Wayne had similar pressure styles, except that Terry was a much harder hitter that McCullough. Naz couldn't stop McCullough and he sure as hell wouldn't be able to stop Terry.

    McGovern by KO, but not without a few anxious moments for the "Terrible One"
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 06-27-2009 at 04:40 AM.

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Again a list of names with no details, a lot of abstract fuzzy words. How many actual next-day reports have you read concerning McGovern or the fighters you listed? Was Young Corbett a harder puncher than Herrera?

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Quote Originally Posted by Senya13
    Again a list of names with no details, a lot of abstract fuzzy words. How many actual next-day reports have you read concerning McGovern or the fighters you listed? Was Young Corbett a harder puncher than Herrera?
    "Picture Terry instead of Wayne McCullough in there with Naz. Terry and Wayne had similar pressure styles, except that Terry was a much harder hitter that McCullough. Naz couldn't stop McCullough and he sure as hell wouldn't be able to stop Terry."

    These are "fuzzy words"? Looks pretty clear to me. Isn't this what you asked for when you wrote "No actual fights get a mention that can be relevant stylistically to the matchup." ??

    I've actually read tons of next day reports on McGovern. They're quite easy to come by. I think you'll find that I'm a very thorough researcher most of the time ;-)

    Was Corbett a harder puncher than Herrera? Not according to their common opponents, sportswriters and various others who saw both gentlemen in action. In fact as late as the 1940s(20 years after Aurelio's death) there were writers who still insisted that Herrera was the hardest puncher p4p in history. A miniature Earnie Shavers.
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 06-27-2009 at 05:10 AM.

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Would you compare McGovern's and McCullough's chins for me? Pressure styles differ also. Can you describe McGovern's defensive skills?
    What were those writers saying about Dal Hawkins or Charley White and how did they compare to Herrera as punchers?

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    [QUOTE=Senya13]Would you compare McGovern's and McCullough's chins for me?

    HAPPY TO:

    McGOVERN- KO'D ONLY TWICE IN 80 BOUTS(BOTH TO SAME FIGHTER), DESPITE FACING SUCH OPPOSITION AS GEORGE DIXON, BATTLING NELSON, JIMMY BRITT, AURELIO HERRERA, FRANK ERNE, PEDLAR PALMER, HARRY FORBES, EDDIE SANTRY, OSCAR GARDNER, DAVE SULLIVAN, HARLEM TOMMY MURPHY, EDDIE HANLON, ETC.

    MCCULLOUGH- ALSO KO'D TWICE BUT IN A MERE 34 BOUTS VS FAR LESS FORMIDABLE OPPOSITION.

    Pressure styles differ also. Can you describe McGovern's defensive skills?

    LIKE MCCULLOUGHS, MEANING THAT THEY BOTH SUBSCRIBED TO THE OLD ADAGE ABOUT THE BEST DEFENSE BEING A GOOD OFFENSE. MCGOVERN HIT MUCH HARDER, SO NEEDLESS TO SAY HIS DEFENSE WAS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN WAYNE'S. HE WAS JACK DEMPSEY IN MINIATURE.

    What were those writers saying about Dal Hawkins or Charley White and how did they compare to Herrera as punchers?

    I'VE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS. HERE IT IS AGAIN- as late as the 1940s(20 years after Aurelio's death) there were writers who still insisted that Herrera was the hardest puncher p4p in history

    BOTH HAWKINS AND WHITE WERE FAMED FOR THEIR LEFTS, SPECIFICALLY WHITE'S LEFT HOOK AND HAWKINS'S STRAIGHT LEFT. DEADLY WEAPONS. COMPARABLE TO AURELIO BUT I'VE NEVER HEARD ANYONE PUT THEM IN A CLASS ABOVE HERRERA. THE KO RECORDS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. COMPARE THEM FOR YOURSELF. IT'S NO CONTEST. HERRERA HAS THEM BOTH BEAT BY MILES.
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 06-27-2009 at 05:39 AM.

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    So McGovern's chin was equal or better than McCullough's? How many times was McCullough knocked down or out for the count?

    I wasn't asking you to compare McCullough's and McGovern's defense. Who was harder to hit, Naz or McGovern, and who hit harder between the two?

    What writers were those? And can I have exact quotes of what they wrote about Hawkins or White? What did they write about Jimmy Wilde? How much of Herrera's record has been confirmed by primary sources? What were Herrera's best three KO wins?

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    Picture Terry instead of Wayne McCullough in there with Naz. Terry and Wayne had similar pressure styles, except that Terry was a much harder hitter that McCullough. Naz couldn't stop McCullough and he sure as hell wouldn't be able to stop Terry.

    McGovern by KO, but not without a few anxious moments for the "Terrible One"
    Spot on Surf, for all those that talk of Naz power, he could not dent Wayne and I believe that fighters like Terry, Sal, Nelson, Lopez, McGuigan, all had great chins and all were more powerful and naturally stronger than a Wayne McCullough. Did Wayne have a better chin than Nelson or Sal or Barry or Terry? P4P maybe, but the fact that they were also that bit bigger levels it out and maybe even favors these guys when being hit by a Naz!


    Senya wrote:

    I guess I haven't made my point clear enough. Whenever match-ups between old-timers and modern (semi-modern) boxers are being discussed, on this forum, and on any other I've been at, it is oranges and apples most of the time. For modern fighters their strong and weak points, and stylistic analysis are being discussed based on actual fights. Old-timers instead get a list of names of their best opponents, and fuzzy descriptions, great, tough, skillful, clever, whatever. No actual fights get a mention that can be relevant stylistically to the matchup. Because most people haven't actually researched those old-timers and almost all they know is based on secondary sources, poorly-researched articles written by other people.

    McGovern was greater, tougher, more skillful and clever than Young Corbett. Did that stop Corbett from knocking him out twice?


    Couldn't agree more, well said!
    Last edited by walshb; 06-27-2009 at 09:51 AM.

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    [QUOTE=Senya13]So McGovern's chin was equal or better than McCullough's? How many times was McCullough knocked down or out for the count?

    WHOM DID HE FIGHT WHO WAS CAPABLE OF KNOCKING HIM DOWN OR OUT FOR THE COUNT? I HAVE NAMED SEVERAL FOR TERRY. CAN YOU NAME ME SOME FOR WAYNE? HOW MANY WORLD CLASS POWER PUNCHERS DID HE FACE THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER AS COMPARED TO MCGOVERN? I'VE ANSWERED ENOUGH OF YOUR QUESTIONS. TIME FOR YOU TO ANSWER A FEW YOURSELF, AMIGO.

    What writers were those? And can I have exact quotes of what they wrote about Hawkins or White?

    SURE, GO GET SOME BACK ISSUES OF THE RING(NAT FLEISCHER AND CO. WROTE OFTEN OF BOTH MEN) OR OLD NEWSPAPER ARTICLES. THEY'RE IN THERE. OR DO YOU ALWAYS RELY ON OTHERS TO DO ALL OF YOUR RESEARCH FOR YOU?

    What did they write about Jimmy Wilde? How much of Herrera's record has been confirmed by primary sources? What were Herrera's best three KO wins?

    I'VE NOTICED OVER THE MONTHS THAT YOU HAVE AN INTERESTING DEBATING STYLE, BASED PRIMARILY UPON TRYING TO GET OTHERS TO SCRAMBLE AROUND TO FIND THEIR SOURCES FOR YOUR BILLION RANDOM SCATTERGUN QUESTIONS. CLEVER. KEEP THE OPPONENT ON THE DEFENSIVE(ANSWERING YOUR QUESTIONS AND JUSTIFYING THEIR POSITION WHILE YOU CONCEAL YOUR OWN POINT OF VIEW) AND YOU REMAIN IN THE ASCENDANT POSITION. HERE'S A QUESTION FOR YOU: DO YOU EVER DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH?

    WHAT IS YOUR POSITION, SENYA? DO YOU HAVE ONE HERE? OR IS IT MORE OF THE USUAL WITH YOU JUST GETTING YOUR JOLLIES IN SEEING IF YOU CAN GET OTHERS TO SCRAMBLE AROUND ANSWERING YOUR CONSTANT DEMANDS FOR CLARIFICATION AND PROOF OF THEIR ASSERTIONS RATHER THAN YOU GETTING OFF YOUR DUFF AND DOING YOUR OWN RESEARCH?

    JIMMY WILDE? CHARLEY WHITE? DAL HAWKINS?

    YOU'RE ALL OVER THE PLACE, MAN.
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 06-27-2009 at 02:24 PM.

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    Re: Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

    Quote Originally Posted by Senya13
    How much of Herrera's record has been confirmed by primary sources?
    None of it. It's all fake. Aurelio Herrera never existed. All the next day newspaper reports were falsified and the fights themselves never occurred.

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