Terrible Terry McGovern vs. Naseem Hamed

[Senya13]

If you have seen enough McCullough's fights, you must be aware how terrible his defense was and how often he was hit clean and flush. Also, it's not enough to just give out the names. For example, Herrera landed very few punches to the head in the fight with McGovern, for Terry to prove his chin.

You named the decade, so I was thinking you could give some more hints as to sources. Since it was you who introduced the argument of Herrera being praised the hardest puncher P4P in history, according to ethics of argumentation, it is your obligation to prove it, not your opponent's.

Look several posts higher and you would notice that I listed several fights of Canzoneri as examples of my point, something you wouldn't be able to come up with without doing some research (looking up next-day fight reports). I have done some research on McGovern myself (beside what Barry Deskins posted on this and other forums, his scrapbook on Terry), but I never had the time to sort them out. There are just too many fighters I'm interested in. Now, if you asked me about Joe Gans or Packey McFarland, I could be of better help, as I consider myself the best expert on these two fighters, and have huge scrapbooks on both.

My point I have clarified above, what I consider to be wrong when old-timers are compared with modern/semi-modern fighters.

As for Herrera's record, I did some research on him as well, and on many occasions I wasn't able to find confirmation of his California bouts (with dates listed here or at boxrec) even in local sources next day. Besides, I know that many fighters of that epoch had their records falsified to some degree by their managers in order to make them more marketable. Therefore I'm more than sure that significant portion of Herrera's record includes incorrect uncofirmed entries.

[Surf-Bat]

If you have seen enough McCullough's fights, you must be aware how terrible his defense was and how often he was hit clean and flush. Also, it's not enough to just give out the names. For example, Herrera landed very few punches to the head in the fight with McGovern, for Terry to prove his chin.

You named the decade, so I was thinking you could give some more hints as to sources. Since it was you who introduced the argument of Herrera being praised the hardest puncher P4P in history, according to ethics of argumentation, it is your obligation to prove it, not your opponent's.

Look several posts higher and you would notice that I listed several fights of Canzoneri as examples of my point, something you wouldn't be able to come up with without doing some research (looking up next-day fight reports). I have done some research on McGovern myself (beside what Barry Deskins posted on this and other forums, his scrapbook on Terry), but I never had the time to sort them out. There are just too many fighters I'm interested in. Now, if you asked me about Joe Gans or Packey McFarland, I could be of better help, as I consider myself the best expert on these two fighters, and have huge scrapbooks on both.

My point I have clarified above, what I consider to be wrong when old-timers are compared with modern/semi-modern fighters.

As for Herrera's record, I did some research on him as well, and on many occasions I wasn't able to find confirmation of his California bouts (with dates listed here or at boxrec) even in local sources next day. Besides, I know that many fighters of that epoch had their records falsified to some degree by their managers in order to make them more marketable. Therefore I'm more than sure that significant portion of Herrera's record includes incorrect uncofirmed entries.

Tell you what I'll do. If you're interested I can send you an article on Herrera I'm putting the finishing touches on. I spent a long time doing research on it and every word in it is verifiable with what exists out there in the form of primary sources; newspaper articles, interviews, etc. It's a pretty comprehensive overview. If this interests you send me your email addy and I'll send it. If after reading it you have further questions I'll be happy to answer. It's best to start from there.

[Senya13]

My e-mail is listed on Joe Gans record page here at CBZ.

[Surf-Bat]

Sent it. For further info on Herrera you might want to check out the following:

The Ring:
Oct. 1925 "One Punch Knockout Stars" by Ike Dorgan(where he does an in depth comparison of Herrera's power to that of George KO Chaney, with Aurelio coming out on top)
Nov. 1925 "My Favorite Fighters" by Jack Kofoed
Aug. 1929. Tim McGrath article

Dorgan also did another Ring article worth finding entitled "The Mexican with the Bone-Breaking fists". I have the article but not the date. Biddy Bishop did a 1920s Ring article as well that I have where he rated Herrera as "The hardest puncher of all time". Again, I have the article but no date.

"Memoirs of a promoter" by Jack Curley (as told to Frank Graham) is worth finding, too.

[Surf-Bat]

As for Herrera's record, I did some research on him as well, and on many occasions I wasn't able to find confirmation of his California bouts (with dates listed here or at boxrec) even in local sources next day. Besides, I know that many fighters of that epoch had their records falsified to some degree by their managers in order to make them more marketable. Therefore I'm more than sure that significant portion of Herrera's record includes incorrect uncofirmed entries.

I live in Los Angeles and have access to several next-day reports. Which ones do you want to know about?

[Senya13]

Thanks. I'll read it later. Out of curiosity, were you able to find confirmation of Herrera drawing with Solly Smith in October 1898? Smith was pretty famous and news about him appeared regularly, so it'd be surprising that no mention of such bout could be found. Besides, he injured his hand in bout the previous month and also was actively looking for a rematch with Sullivan, making it even more doubtful that bout with Herrera had taken place there and then (if at all).

[Surf-Bat]

Thanks. I'll read it later. Out of curiosity, were you able to find confirmation of Herrera drawing with Solly Smith in October 1898? Smith was pretty famous and news about him appeared regularly, so it'd be surprising that no mention of such bout could be found. Besides, he injured his hand in bout the previous month and also was actively looking for a rematch with Sullivan, making it even more doubtful that bout with Herrera had taken place there and then (if at all).

Funny you should bring that bout up. I currently have some researchers doing work for me at the Bakersfield Library regarding that fight and the Utah Bob Thompson fight. I'm hoping to get answers this week.

[Surf-Bat]

A couple more interesting articles you may want to see on Herrera and how others viewed his punching power in later years. Go to newspaperarchive.com and find the Reno Evening Gazette for 7/7/1943- "Aurelio Herrera was Hardest Hitter of All Lightweights, Oldtimers Say" by Russ Newland.

Also the Braven Dyer article from the LA Times, 11/20/1943

Out of curiosity, did you ever look through the Bakersfield papers for the Solly Smith fight?

[Senya13]

I don't have access to Bakersfield newspapers. I live in Russia, so my choice of newspapers for research is limited, you know

To say the truth, I prefer to research things written around the time the event had taken place (primary sources), than read recollections of event of far past. The only exception being when the fighter himself has written memoirs of some kind, it can clear up some things. Even in that case it requires facts to be cross-checked, but at least it's all firsthand information.

[Surf-Bat]

Well, I'll let you know what I find from the Bakersfield papers. That should make up for me snapping at you a few posts ago!

[Senya13]

In all, you have next-day reports for how many Herrera fights, may I ask? I like it when articles about fighters include not only their bigger fights, but give at least some details on minor ones, even if it's just a couple of sentences. Say, something like...

On January 9, 1911, McFarland won a 10-round decision over Johnny McCarthy, at Kansas City, MO. Although McCarthy wasn't able to put up much resistance, he was as game as they come, and was mostly playing for the wind and kidneys. But even when he managed to land some punches they had no effect on McFarland, who, as usual, left the ring unmarked. Packey was McCarthy's master both at long range and at infighting. To prove that he was able to make lightweight limit, McFarland weighed in at 8pm just several ounces above 133 pounds.


Although, it can significantly increase the size of the article, and not to mention requires much more thorough research, but it helps to understand the fighter better, learn more about styles matchups, etc.

[Surf-Bat]

In all, you have next-day reports for how many Herrera fights, may I ask? I like it when articles about fighters include not only their bigger fights, but give at least some details on minor ones, even if it's just a couple of sentences. Say, something like...

On January 9, 1911, McFarland won a 10-round decision over Johnny McCarthy, at Kansas City, MO. Although McCarthy wasn't able to put up much resistance, he was as game as they come, and was mostly playing for the wind and kidneys. But even when he managed to land some punches they had no effect on McFarland, who, as usual, left the ring unmarked. Packey was McCarthy's master both at long range and at infighting. To prove that he was able to make lightweight limit, McFarland weighed in at 8pm just several ounces above 133 pounds.


Although, it can significantly increase the size of the article, and not to mention requires much more thorough research, but it helps to understand the fighter better, learn more about styles matchups, etc.

I've got quite a few. Which fights do you want to know about?

[Senya13]

I don't know which ones I have myself, like I said, I never found time to sort out what I have on him, he's not among my priorities. What about the ones prior to his meeting with McGovern? The boxrec version only has two bouts that have the venue entered for them, the rest looks to be unconfirmed (although several bouts have later edits, but they look to be related to that version of his record printed in Deseret Evening News, rather than being based on primary sources).

P.S. I'm not asking you list exact fights/dates/details, just wondering how many other than those two verified bouts you have found confirmation of. Number, nothing else.