Michael Jackson Dead

[Michael Frank]

One of the lines of BS recited repeatedly by Al Sharpton the day Jackson died was that "Before Live Aid there was 'We Are The World,' " the efforts for which were led by Jackson.

Actually, if one compares apples to apples, before "We Are The World," there was 'Do They Know It's Christmas' as organized by Bob Geldof and sung by mostly British popular singers as "Band-Aid," which became "Live-Aid."

Jackson did not "originate" this idea at all, but instead repeated something already done by the Britishers, thanks to Geldof.

"Do They Know It's Christmas" was recorded on November 25, 1984 and released on December 3, 1984. "We Are the World" was recorded in January 1985 and released March 7, 1985. Live Aid was July 13, 1985

[walshb]

Walsh:

You Gotta be kidding me!!! The Beatles don't compare to that freak/mutant???

Man, you need to learn some musical history....

The Beatles literally changed the world & how people saw it. Their influence was WAY beyond just music they were an actual instument of social change.

Jackson? Yes he was a hell of a performer. He had great presence on stage ... & that's about it. He was in the right time in the right place but what did he ever do to change the world view?

Make pedophilia, extreme plastic surgery & some of the strangest, most grotesque life style changes ever - seem cool?

To compare him favorable, musically or historcally with The Beatles or someone like Dylan is just plain totally uninformed.

Now don't get me wrong, Walsh, I like you, respect you & have always enjoyed our exchanges & you certainly know your boxing, but on this your off the charts wrong in your comparison.

GorDoom

Gor, I stressed solo to solo, I meant that as one to one no Beatle in my mind compared to Michael for overall talent. The man was sensational and was the most succesfull solo artist in history. Macca or MJ? I know well who I would pay to see at peak. Macca? A freaking boring sod.

The Beatles as a package were tremendous, but I would pick Elvis and Jackson every day of the week over any SINGLE Beatle.

MJ had so much more talent and was by far a greater stage
performer.

I am a major fan of ALL music. Not a specific genre, and the Beatles are up
on my list as an act I would dream of seeing live at peak.

But, of all the acts at peak on stage I would pick Jacko.
Now, you may think this mad, well, that's down to taste and not
everyone will agree on who's the best entertainer in history.

I know well that the Beatles and Jacko would be high on a lot
of peoples lists, both were sensational and it all boils down
to individual tastes.

BTW, Queen at peak and on stage were IMO the greatest live act
in history, for a band and ahead of the Beatles I feel.

Did they sell more? No. Did they influence more? No, but as live
acts go, they were the best of the best and I personally think
Queen's music was better and more diverse and technically
proficient. Does this make me crazy too?

BTW, let us separate MJ the music and MJ the person here

[walshb]

Walshb, Ringo Starr once put it so accurately on a late-night show (Carson or Letterman) when he was asked to compare MJ with the Beatles. He said, "Michael Jackson is a superstar. We were 'Monsters.' "

I couldn't agree more. The Beatles, like Elvis, took the US (and I think many other countries) by storm, radically changing not only music, but hairstyles, dress, and attitudes. As well as the way a whole generation began to think . . .

Jackson, if looking only at his positives and none of the many negatives, was simply a major-record-selling singer/dancer. Few males actually wanted to be like him. His music didn't change a generation, and few fellow-MJ-freaks changed their hairstyles or clothes to be like him.

Jackson's cultural and musical impact was much more comparable to Madonna's; and not close to that of the Beatles. Of this I am positive.

Michael, nowhere in my post did I say MJ was more an influence, nowehere,
I simply said that as an act and solo pefromer against any single Beatle, I would rate him ahead. As in, a better talent and act and an act I would chose
to see LIVE over them as a band and over any single one on his own.

BTW, eras do lend to one having a greater mpact and influence.
The Beatles lived in the 60's when damn well everything
was changing and happening.

MJ was the major major act of the 80's and was very very influential
and successfull during his peak. His music videos alone were
so ground breaking

[10-8]

Who here would be embarrassed for their friends to know that they have ABBEY ROAD in their CD collection?

Who hear would be embarrassed for their friends to know that they have THRILLER in their CD collection?

Enough said.

Bullshit, bubble gum, hollow, processed pre-pubescent aimed garbage. What has 40,000 legs and 5 pubic hairs? A Michael Jackson audience.

THE DOG GONE GIRL IS MINE?
Sure Michael, we believe that one. Gimme abreak.

[10-8]

MJ was the major major act of the 80's and was very very influential and successfull during his peak. His music videos alone were
so ground breaking

Hey Walshie ever see the ALICE COOPER TV special THE NIGHTMARE that was broadcast in 1975. A lengthy horror video for every song from that concept album. Check out DEVILS FOOD/THE BLACK WIDOW with lengthy horror narration by Vincent Price.

Hmmmmm. Where did I hear that one?

[walshb]

Who here would be embarrassed for their friends to know that they have ABBEY ROAD in their CD collection?

Who hear would be embarrassed for their friends to know that they have THRILLER in their CD collection?

Enough said.

Bullshit, bubble gum, hollow, processed pre-pubescent aimed garbage. What has 40,000 legs and 5 pubic hairs? A Michael Jackson audience.

THE DOG GONE GIRL IS MINE?
Sure Michael, we believe that one. Gimme abreak.

So, you are seriously saying that a person should feel
embarrassed because they happen to have the biggest selling
album in history in their collection and an album
with many great tracks. Like I said, I am a music fan, you seem
to be a genre fan. Open up and try to separate
the man from the music. BTW, I know of nobody
who has ever said that Thriller was anything but spectacular.

Even hardened rock fans who weren't into Jackson, can
appreciate that album

[Michael Frank]

Walshb, Ringo Starr once put it so accurately on a late-night show (Carson or Letterman) when he was asked to compare MJ with the Beatles. He said, "Michael Jackson is a superstar. We were 'Monsters.' "

I couldn't agree more. The Beatles, like Elvis, took the US (and I think many other countries) by storm, radically changing not only music, but hairstyles, dress, and attitudes. As well as the way a whole generation began to think . . .

Jackson, if looking only at his positives and none of the many negatives, was simply a major-record/concert-selling singer/dancer. VERY few males actually wanted to be like him. His music didn't change a generation, and few fellow-MJ-freaks changed their hairstyles or clothes to be like him.

We certainly experienced Beatlemania here in the US; never MJmania. Jackson stood out in his time; the Beatles CREATED their time! Jackson's cultural and musical impact was much more comparable to Madonna's; and not close to that of the Beatles. Of this I am positive.

PS - On your solo Beatle vs. MJ comment, I'd take any of the solo Beatles as being far superior songwriters AND far better singers. AND they played instruments expertly. MJ's voice as an adult was weak and wierd. His voice as a child was much better, if feminine. "We Are The World" was a simple, uninteresting song. So perhaps MJ's one superior ability was that he could outdance them... notice who bought whose publishing. No Beatle sought Jackson's, it was the other way around.

Hell, the Beatles gave FAR, FAR more funny and interesting interviews. Listening to Jackson being interviewed as an adult is always to be subjected to childish, simple thoughts. I liked it better (slightly) listening to his interviews when he was a kid, talking about lizards...

[10-8]

So, you are seriously saying that a person should feel
embarrassed because they happen to have the biggest selling
album in history in their collection and an album
with many great tracks.

ABBA sold near as many albums as Jackson and yeah I'd be pretty fuckin' embarrassed to have MAMA MIA in my collection.

I happen to piss standing up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZy5MX_kBto

Alice Cooper 7 years before the 'groundbreaking' Jackson.

[walshb]

Lennon was a good singer, Macca was pretty poppy and girly to be honest, not a rock singer, even though he tried his arse of to be. Jackson was a pretty impressive pop singer I thought. Again, matter of taste really. I was a fan of Lennon's singing, not Macca's

[walshb]

ABBA sold near as many albums as Jackson and yeah I'd be pretty fuckin' embarrassed to have MAMA MIA in my collection.

I happen to piss standing up.

Again, separate the people from the music. You seem to be anti anything that doesn't scream of rock or manly or hard music. Abba wrote some fabulous
tunes and were a stunning act. Just because they weren't smashing up hotels and chasing women every night and getting off their heads on heroin doesn't mean that you should feel embarrassed to like their music

[10-8]

Again, separate the people from the music. You seem to be anti anything that doesn't scream of rock or hard music. Abba wrote some fabulous
tunes and were a stunning act. Just because they weren't smashing up hotels and chasing women every night and gettick off their heads on heroin doesn't mean that you should feel embarrassed to like their music

Walshie you have no idea what's in my CD collection so you're unqualified to make any assumptions of what my preferences are. I actually have very eclectic tastes everything from Bach and Paganini to XTC and Elvis Costello to Yngwie Malmsteen and Uli Jon Roth. I've told you I don't like Jackson or Abba because it's bubble gum bullshit. How does this equate to me not liking 'anything that doesn't scream of rock or hard music'?

[TDKO]

Again, separate the people from the music. You seem to be anti anything that doesn't scream of rock or manly or hard music. Abba wrote some fabulous
tunes and were a stunning act. Just because they weren't smashing up hotels and chasing women every night and getting off their heads on heroin doesn't mean that you should feel embarrassed to like their music

The male portion of ABBA did chase some tail.....

Benny got Agnetha (they were a couple at the time) so mad with his womanizing she threw a fish at him........

(Both girls had killer legs in their days......worth looking at some old videos
just for that ) I can separate the legs from the music.

[walshb]

It got me thinking, of all the acts in history, if you could see ten of them
live and at peak, who would the be?

Mine are in order

Jackson
Elvis
Queen
Little Richard
The Beatles
Chuck Berry
Fats Domino
Frank Sinatra
Guns n Roses
Metallica

[10-8]

The male portion of ABBA did chase some tail.....

Benny got Agnetha (they were a couple at the time) so mad with his womanizing she threw a fish at him........

(Both girls had killer legs in their days......worth looking at some old videos
just for that ) I can separate the legs from the music.

The blonde chick had a killer ass in spandex. Actually caused a bit of a media furor back in the day....

[10-8]

It got me thinking, of al e acts in history, if you could see ten of them
live and at peak, who would the be?

Mine are in order

Jackson
Elvis
Queen
Little Richard
The Beatles
Chuck Berry
Fats Domino
Frank Sinatra
Guns n Roses
Hate to say it, but, U2!

By the end of his touring days Elvis was a fat, bloated, polyester wearing, constipated, drug addict three chord strummin' joke.

[TDKO]

The blonde chick had a killer ass in spandex. Actually caused a bit of a media furor back in the day....

Yes indeed,

I'd take that Betty instead of the Veronica....

[walshb]

The blonde in her day was one of the finest women in entertainment
history, all real and all woman

10-8, good collection there. I just found it
odd that yu woud think anyone would be embarrassed
to own Thriller. I never came across this attitude.
Maybe it's a Canadian thing?

[walshb]

By the end of his touring days Elvis was a fat, bloated, polyester wearing, constipated, drug addict three chord strummin' joke.

Yeah, but he never lost that voice or charisma and at peak, he was
sensational. The 1968 special was to me the finest act I have seen
that was simple and barely reherased. Effortless brilliance

[Michael Frank]

My friend 10-8,

While in agreement with most of what you wrote (and as one who also can't stand Jackson the person), I'd nonetheless say that I couldn't care less that I enjoyed his earlier music when a child (you called it bubblegum, I think it was often well-written by great writers, was well-produced, and was well-performed). Nor do I feel a twinge of embarrassment that I bought the Thriller album. Do I listen to it? No, I never even listened to it when I bought it, actually.

But the notion that somehow my friends will mock me for what music I own or liked as a kid--this is important to you? Not to me. I'd get more mature friends.

I enjoyed some of the ABBA stuff as well (though not Mamma Mia and plenty of other tunes of theirs), and feel no embarrassment saying so. Didn't give a rat's ass if people knew I did back when it was popular in the 1970s and millions of others liked it, too.

A friend of mine told me how his older brother had made fun of him back in 1970 because he told his brother that he liked some Carpenters songs. My friend liked hard rock, but also the Carpenters. His brother taunted him, and acted like it was a comment on his manhood. As if one is a tough guy based on listening to heavily tatooed, drugged out, psychopathic nutcases like so many of the "great" hard rockers who, as walshb notes, smash hotel rooms and are often genuine pricks (oh, and weaklings, too).

My friend's older brother, whom many (including me) always thought was a total a__hole, died as a 20-year-old while skydiving with a chute that didn't open. I guess he'd be a rock legend...

[10-8]

Well Michael if you enjoy the depth of songs like ABC-123 and Sugar Daddy, then all the power to you, I simply don't and as a musician and passionate fan of music I simply find it formulatic, plastic and hollow and would feel pretty embarrassed to have it in my collection. Ditto for Donny Osmond, KC & The Sunshine Band, David Cassidy, Culture Club, Milli Vanilli, The Back Steet Boys etc... all who sold a shitload of wussy records and all suck in my opinion. I'm glad you're comfortable with it though. Do me a favour and throw on a THRILLER jacket next time your out with the boys, crank BILLY JEAN on the car stereo, moonwalk across the parking lot then make a point of dismissing the 'immature' friends that laugh their asses off at you.

Give me The Beatles, The Stones, The Who, The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath etc....anyday and leave the toilet seat up while you're at it.

[10-8]

I just found it odd that yu woud think anyone would be embarrassed to own Thriller. I never came across this attitude.
Maybe it's a Canadian thing?

Well I guess there's a good reason Jackson's comeback was in Britian because he was considered somewhat of a joke here in Canada, although before I get jumped on for that 'blanket' (no pun intended) statement I'm sure he had enough fans to still perform here.

[walshb]

10-8, what 2009 and 1983 have in common I don't know.
I guess it's like comparing the 1964 Ali with the 1980 version

I know well that Jacko has been finished for many
years, but there will always be suckers
that will pay for anything

[BoxofDaylight]

One of the lines of BS recited repeatedly by Al Sharpton the day Jackson died was that "Before Live Aid there was 'We Are The World,' " the efforts for which were led by Jackson.

Actually, if one compares apples to apples, before "We Are The World," there was 'Do They Know It's Christmas' as organized by Bob Geldof and sung by mostly British popular singers as "Band-Aid," which became "Live-Aid."

Jackson did not "originate" this idea at all, but instead repeated something already done by the Britishers, thanks to Geldof.

"Do They Know It's Christmas" was recorded on November 25, 1984 and released on December 3, 1984. "We Are the World" was recorded in January 1985 and released March 7, 1985. Live Aid was July 13, 1985

Anyone ever hear of George Harrison's "The Concert for Bangladesh"? Sharpton spouted a bunch of other stuff that did not ring true; snubbing contributions by Elvis, Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr., Bill Cosby, James Brown, and a host of others who were great entertainers and/or who made contributions to race relations.

[HandToMouth]

By the end of his touring days Elvis was a fat, bloated, polyester wearing, constipated, drug addict three chord strummin' joke.

all true but you left out one thing, he could still sing his ass off. one of the saddest if not the saddest event I ever saw in popular music was elvis singing the righteous brothers, unchained melody live on tv no more then months before his death. he was in horrible shape & looked much as you describe.

yet he not only sang the song, he felt it. tears coming out of glazed eyes... yet the voice was in top baritone form.

sad ending.

[GorDoom]

The Beatles solo v. MJ...

Where to begin...

Let's start with the weakest one of the Lad's, Paul. As a solo he had lots of pop hits like Band On The Run, Silly Love Songs, Jet & even a couple with MJ, remember that treacly piece of puff, Ebony & Ivory? & another one that I can't even recall.

His hits were lightweight # 1 pop saccharine, JUST LIKE MJ. Though I would venture that Paul,is a far superior singer with depth, octave range & phrasing that MJ with his foppish, girlish voice that had NO range except a falsetto Hee Hee.

Paul has sung songs as varied as Hey Jude, Yesterday, I'm Down, Helter Skelter, Why Don't We Do It In The Road, Let It Be & on & on with a vocal range that MJ simply cannot touch.

& Paul's the weak link ....

George solo: Just the magnificent, All Things Must Pass, triple album & hey, how about Bangala Desh, The template for Live Aid almost 15 years before?

George like John accomplished things in his life & sang & wrote songs that were ABOUT something. Not lightweight ditties that were a tribute to misplaced narcisism like, I'm Bad.

John: His first solo album is one of the most brilliant, brutal, self confrontational works of art ever recorded & that was preceded by the his great rocker, Instant Karma.
Then there is the Imagine album & the song itself.

I watched all the musical tributes after 9/11. I didn't hear one MJ song or reference. Not one. Beatle songs & most especially John's solo work, Imagine was played quite a few times. The most mesmerising version was by of all people, Neil Young.

Oh yeah, there were quite a few Dylan songs & references also.

As a solo artist Joh was instrumental in the anti-war movement & also was the man who for better or worse propeled the alternative psychology movement that was taken up by millions. His first solo work was the springboard for all of those personal explorations by millions of people in the 70's & to this day - & no, I wasn't one of them.

Anyway the point is that MJ did nothing but build a palace to himself, diddle around with kids & was the strangest.creepiest celebrity extant. So yeah, I can compare the Beatles solo ouvre to MJ's & there simply is no comparison other than he sold more records.

So did The Monkee's in their heyday....

Lastly I'd like to point out that I was & am a Stones/Dylan guy, not a Beatle alcolyte. But even so I have to admit The Beatles changed me & millions of other peoples lives - for the better & recorded enduring songs that will be known a 100 years from now. MJ? I seriously doubt it. He'll be more like the Al Jolson of his time. A great song & dance man but with little or no depth.

& like Jolson (who was the biggest star of his day) he will be reduced to a curiosity with the passing of time.

GorDoom

[BoxofDaylight]

It got me thinking, of all the acts in history, if you could see ten of them
live and at peak, who would the be?

Mine are in order

Jackson
Elvis
Queen
Little Richard
The Beatles
Chuck Berry
Fats Domino
Frank Sinatra
Guns n Roses
Metallica

Mine are:
1) The Beatles (what "peak"? I'd love to have seen them in Hamburg 1961, Cavern Club 1962, circa 1964, and been in the crowd when they did the "Hey Jude" video in 1968 with a crowd of folks sitting around them, plus the 1969 "rooftop concert")
2) Elvis: 1956
3) Genesis: 1975-ish
4) CSN&Y: 1970
5) King Crimson: 1969-ish (1975 version was good, too)
6) Jimi Hendrix: 1967-69
7) Dinah Washington: anytime
8) Little Richard: 1957-ish (saw him in the 1980s)
9) The Doors: 1968
10) Crowded House: 1986 (well, in fact, I did seem them this year in a small club)

[hagler04]

I think Michael Jackson had a few solid pop songs . . I think "Thriller" will always be fun at Halloween, "Man in the Mirror" was cheesy as hell but a good song, and a lot of the early Jackson 5 stuff is very good 70s pop-soul (ABC is a killer song no two ways about it)

However, the majority of his stuff was cheesy crap no-one will ever remember. He was not an icon in terms of INFLUENCE near the level of Elvis and the Beatles . . .he was much more of an 80s sensation on the level of a Madonna like Michael recognized. The Bad album? So dated and lacking depth . . .if you are looking for a good lasting piece of 80s bubblegum Duran Duran's Rio is 10 times better. Influential? If you mean spending lots of money on music videos, maybe. There was nothing groundbreaking about his music, and no-one really danced like him b/c his style was very much his own (and I will admit he was an incredible dancer) The funny thing is that the big money music videos went the way of the dinosaur once Youtube and reality TV rose to prominance, so even that bit of influence has waned.

What he did do is make the music industry a SHITLOAD of money and achieved arguably more worldwide fame at his peak than any pop artist in history, a big reason being that globalization's rise coincided perfectly with his career. . Michael Jackson's career would have never survived the 24 hour news cycle of today nor could he have ever achieved such global fame in the 1960s. He really came along at the perfect time.

[Michael Frank]

Well Michael if you enjoy the depth of songs like ABC-123 and Sugar Daddy, then all the power to you, I simply don't and as a musician and passionate fan of music I simply find it formulatic, plastic and hollow and would feel pretty embarrassed to have it in my collection. Ditto for Donny Osmond, KC & The Sunshine Band, David Cassidy, Culture Club, Milli Vanilli, The Back Steet Boys etc... all who sold a shitload or wussy records and all suck in my opinion. I'm glad you're comfortable with it though. Do me a favour and throw on a THRILLER jacket next time your out with the boys, crank BILLY JEAN on the car stereo then make a point of dismissing the 'immature' friends that laugh their asses off at you.

Give me The Beatles, The Stones, The Who, The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath etc....anyday and leave the toilet seat up while you're at it.

10-8, I don't get any masculine or non-masculine identity from my music choices. That someone might laugh at another who likes what millions of people like says a lot more about that person than the object of his ridicule. They are somehow superior because they listen to music by drug addicts/alcoholics like Keith Moon, Jim Morrison, Ozzie Osbourne, Keith Richards, Hendrix, Guns 'N Roses, et. al.? And the suicidal Kurt Cobain, apparently his music contributes more to society, or is "deeper," than that of a pop musician? Or we should find unique entertainment, and deep meaning, in the sick alleged antics of Ozzie Osbourne, Alice Cooper, and others?

I have no doubt that the toughest boxers discussed on this board in large number enjoy at least some popular, formula, top 40 music. I was 9 when songs like "I'll Be There" came out. If I liked it then, am I supposed to diss it when I get older just to please guys who think it's something to laugh at people over?

I think Mick Jagger and Jim Morrison were two of the most feminine men in rock history. It didn't prevent them from bedding a ton of women, but I just don't see the correlation between music and masculinity, or, apparently, toilet seats. "Wussy records"? I don't wear Thriller jackets nor do I in any way like the song Billie Jean, but this sort of attitude surprises me. Nobody ever was tough because of the music they liked, and I don't know anyone who gets embarrassed by owning the CDs they chose to buy when younger. Are they supposed to think, "Gee, I was really gay/a loser/had bad music taste back then? I'm sure glad I grew up and evolved to Mötley Crüe."

[10-8]

Michael if you're not at all embarrassed to have THRILLER in your collection, why the need to point out in this discussion "Do I listen to it? No, I never even listened to it when I bought it, actually" and "I don't wear Thriller jackets nor do I in any way like the song Billie Jean." Why the hell did you buy it in the first place then? You protest too much.

Anyway,thanks for the morality lesson but I gotta say you slay me. You knock 'drug user' musicians while conveniently overlooking the fact that Michael Jackson was in fact a drug addict himself and in fact died of an overdose, while Alice Cooper and Ozzy Osbourne use 'sick antics' again while overlooking the fact the Jackson was an alleged child molester. Hey Alice is a family man, clean and sober since 1983 been with his wife since 1975 and has children that were made the old fashioned way by having sex with his wife as opposed to surrogate mothers and anonymous sperm donors. And where did I mention Kurt Cobain, Guns N' Roses or Motley Crue? And Jim Morrison feminine? The guy was fat bearded whiskey slugging baritone slob. Of course I wouldn't want to generalize on what your definition of feminine means. Clearly I struck a nerve with the THRILLER ownership and urinating in a standing position remark and perhaps that says a lot more about you than it says about me. Maybe I should think twice about laughing at anything from now on with that sort of cookbook logic. No big whoop. There's always that Village People reunion tour to hold out for.

[GanchoIzquierdo]

A little something from The Onion's "American Voices" to lighten the mood:

Harold Dray,
Meat Packer
"I bet Janis, Jimi, Jim, Jerry, Kurt, Elvis, and Michael are having a jam session up in heaven right now. A horrible, cacophonous jam session because their styles clash too much.”

Jenny Wedo,
Systems Analyst
"Why do the really weird celebrities who probably already wish they were dead anyway always have to die so young?"

Paul Wasserstrom,
Pharmacist
"I'm really saddened by this, not as a music fan, but as an amateur theme park aficionado.”