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View Poll Results: Pac - Cotto. Who wins?

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  • Cotto by KO

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  • Pac by KO

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Thread: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

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    Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    Pac pushing the envelope once again. My god.



    from fightnews.com

    Pacquiao-Cotto is on!

    A long distance call from Bob Arum over the weekend proved crucial in compelling Manny Pacquiao to finally make a decision to face Miguel Cotto of Puerto Rico, a senior adviser of the Filipino fighter told fightnews and Manila Bulletin on Monday night. Mike Koncz said Pacquiao and Cotto will square off at 145 lbs on Nov. 14 at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas and “an adjustment” was made in the negotiations in Pacquiao’s favor. Koncz, however, politely declined to divulge details. Pacquiao had insisted that Cotto go down to 143 lbs for the fight to take place but Arum may have said something that was music to Pacquiao’s ears. Pacquiao lawyer Franklin Gacal said recently that “a premium” would likely persuade Pacquiao to accommodate Cotto’s request that the scheduled 12-rounder be fought at 145 lbs. It had originally been planned that Pacquiao, Koncz and Gacal would fly to Los Angeles but Koncz said there would be no more need for such a tiring and costly trip since Pacquiao has already agreed. Koncz said an announcement from Arum is expected soon.

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    This "catch weight" business is UTTER BULLSHIT. Very, Very, weak move by Pac's brain trust. I know all the Pac syncophants are going to make excuses as to why this is necessary but it's just weak excuses.

    Bottom line here is what a REAL fighter does: At one point during his welterweight reign, Pernell Whitaker who was an undersized welter decided to move up & fight Jr, Middle titilist,Julio Cezar Vasquez back in 1995..

    Vasquez wasn't a great fighter but he was a very rough cutomer with a wicked & lethal left hook. Pea decided he wanted the jr. middle belt even though he had no business fighting at that weight because he was too small.

    So did he ask for a catch weight? NO! He fought him like any other Jr. middle contender. Vasquez came in at well over 160 & Pea was barely over 151.

    & like a REAL fighter, Pea went up against the odds & beat Vasquez decisively. If Pac wants true respect he needs to do exactly the same thing.

    Okay Pac slurpers, make your excuses.... I bet you come up with some real beauty's.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    Agree with Gor to large extent...poor form, former Flyweight champion or not. I think it's ultimately more mental games than anything and I don't think it makes him not a REAL fighter overall (any more than Leonard was not a REAL fighter when did this MUCH worse to LaLonde). It just hurts any stature he'll gain for fighting at Welter and makes Cotto easy to root for. At 143, it threatened the competitive fight. At 145, it's one pound less than Cotto was for Clottey. This should be a hell of a fight anyways.
    Last edited by Crold1; 07-20-2009 at 09:27 PM.

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    I haven't put any thought into this, but I'm not seeing what the big deal is. Cotto agreed to this, right? And it's not as though he's the lineal champ at 147 or something -- he has a bullshit WBO belt. Who cares?

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd
    I haven't put any thought into this, but I'm not seeing what the big deal is. Cotto agreed to this, right? And it's not as though he's the lineal champ at 147 or something -- he has a bullshit WBO belt. Who cares?

    Agreed . . .the 2 lbs will mean jack. All the historical examples you guys are pulling involve guys a weight class or so above their smaller opponent. Cotto is naturally 3 weight classes bigger than Pacquao (and natural body frames are always more significant than how much a guy weighs . . .regardless of how ripped Manny was vs Hatton, the guy is a featherweight in my book).

    Losing an additional 2 lbs to fight a much smaller man and make big money doesn't make Pacquao a 'punk' in my book, it is a good deal for Cotto which is why he took it. Manny is still going up to face top lb4llb guys who are much bigger than him . . .if that makes me a 'slurper' then so be it. I think he's by far the best thing the sport has going right now and I expect this to be a great fight.

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    My only input to this

    Is Cotto signed the contract. He knows the deal. Nothing is sneaking up on him.

    If he loses to Manny, don't cite the Weight as the reason you lost.

    Hawk

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    Quote Originally Posted by hagler04
    Agreed . . .the 2 lbs will mean jack. All the historical examples you guys are pulling involve guys a weight class or so above their smaller opponent. Cotto is naturally 3 weight classes bigger than Pacquao (and natural body frames are always more significant than how much a guy weighs . . .regardless of how ripped Manny was vs Hatton, the guy is a featherweight in my book).

    Losing an additional 2 lbs to fight a much smaller man and make big money doesn't make Pacquao a 'punk' in my book, it is a good deal for Cotto which is why he took it. Manny is still going up to face top lb4llb guys who are much bigger than him . . .if that makes me a 'slurper' then so be it. I think he's by far the best thing the sport has going right now and I expect this to be a great fight.
    thats kind of where I'm at with all this. both guys are going to make out very nicely for this fight. im glad the fight is made although i think this is likely where pac hits his limit but he is so hard to bet against. i could see him having problems defending against pacs attack but on the other hand cotto can likely hurt him anywhere. it could be just wind up being a brilliant choice by roach once again knowing that cotto might have started his his downside of his career quite possibly. we will see. i think i have to pick against pac this time but lets see how the next few months go.

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    You guys don't get it: By Cotto having to sweat down to 145 - even though it's only two pounds it makes a big difference. By having to sweat down that far he is weakening himself & lowering his stamina.

    That's why Pac's camp insisted on it. Cotto went along because it's the biggest payday of his career. That doesn't make it right or an even playing field.

    Of course when it comes to Pac you guys don't care what's fair.... Excuses, Excuses, Excuses....

    So how did Pea, a small,welter fight & vanquish a middleweight in Vasquez? Especially remarkable because unlike Pac, Pea had no power. Yet he still went in there with a 9 pound plus disadvantage & overcame the odds.

    Please explain why Pac needs to put limitations on Cotto? Cotto is smaller than Vasquez & Pea was about the same size as Pac yet he didn't need to put limitations on Vasquez just like Robinson with Lamotta, Henry Armstrong against almost everybody - he was fighting between 137 & 141 & beating welters & middleweights - Or Emile Griffith who went against a monster like Dick Tiger weighing 152 & won the middleweight title.

    So .... Please explain WHY Pac needs these pre-conditions? It's very, very, weak of him & his camp to do so. & you guys accepting it as fait accompli & no big deal is just plain uninformed.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    Pacquiao set to fight Cotto

    Arum says the bout of champions will be at a catch-weight of 145 pounds.

    By Robert Morales, Staff Writer

    Manny Pacquiao, the No.1 pound-for-pound boxer in the world, and welterweight champion Miguel Cotto have come to terms and will fight each other Nov. 14 at MGM Grand in Las Vegas.

    The fight was announced as a done deal Monday by Bob Arum, who promotes both boxers. It will be available on HBO pay-per-view.

    The fight will pit two of the most popular fighters in the world in the Philippines' Pacquiao and Puerto Rico's Cotto, a top-10 pound-for-pound fighter. That and their similar styles figure to make this a highly anticipated matchup, Arum said.

    "This is going to be a fight," Arum said from his offices in Las Vegas. "This is two guys who will give no quarter and will be at each other from the opening bell. This is the type of fight that people, when they see it, are so thrilled because they've really seen action.

    "It is not going to be any kind of fancy boxing exhibition. These guys fight one way."

    Arum said Cotto, 28, agreed to terms last week and Pacquiao did so over the weekend. Arum said they will fight at a catch-weight of 145 pounds, two under the welterweight limit.

    This should not be a problem for Cotto, who weighed 146 pounds for his successful title defense against Joshua Clottey last month in New York City.

    Pacquiao and his team initially had asked for the fight to be made at 143. But that would have put Cotto (34-1, 27 KOs) in a situation he would have had to drain himself in order to make weight. Arum said he did not want any part of that.

    "I wasn't going to do a fight just to make the fight, where one of the fighters had to jeopardize his health," Arum said.

    Freddie Roach, Pacquiao's trainer, had no problem with 145.

    "Cotto is a strong guy, so we obviously tried to get it as low as possible," Roach said. "At 145 or 143, I don't think it really matters. My job is getting him ready for that fight and that's what I'm going to do."

    Pacquiao, 30, is 49-3-2 with 37 knockouts. He is coming off a second-round knockout of Ricky Hatton in a junior welterweight fight in May at MGM Grand.

    Arum said the contracts should be signed this week. He would not divulge the split of the purse at this time.

    "The fighters asked me not to at this particular point," Arum said. "But I'm sure that once the contracts are signed, at the press conference they will give me permission to reveal it because it will be a matter of public record anyway."

    Pacquiao has won titles in six weight divisions from 112 to 140 pounds, cementing the Filipino national hero's status and the sport's pound-for-pound champion. Pacquiao pummeled Oscar De La Hoya into retirement last December in his first welterweight fight.

    robert.morales@presstelegram.com

    The Associated Press contributed to this report

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    Gor

    I agree. I don't like the fact that he's putting in a restriction on Weight.

    But if Cotto IS going to agree to this and take the fight and the payday, he can NOT use that as an exscuse if he loses.

    Cotto could have told him to jump into a lake, even in the face of such a monster Payday.

    Marvin Hagler in 82 told SRL as much when Ray suggested (SRL later claims he was not serious, but with Ray....) that Marvin meet him at 154.

    Marvin had NOTHING close to such a payday on his horizon and he said, if Ray wants MY title, meet me at 160.

    Cotto has other options. Not as big a payday, but other options none the less.

    He is taking this one agianst Manny. I would assume that he's doing so given he made 146, one pound more than the contract with Manny stipulates, in his very last fight agiasnt Clottey.

    If he agrees to Manny's demands, whether Manny SHOULD make them or not, then he really can't bitch about them should he lose.

    Referencing Leonard and Hagler again, when they DID fight in 87', during negotiations, Hagler was quoted as saying: Why bitch about 3 rounds when you have 18 Million staring in your face? Well as we know, when he lost, Marvin DID bitch about those three rounds.

    Same here IMO for Cotto. You KNOW you have to make 145. You Signed the contract. You need to prepare as such. Don't use THAT as an exscuse should you lose.

    Whether it's RIGHT or not, became irrelevant when Cotto agreed to the stipulations.

    Hawk

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    I'm picking Pac to win this fight, maybe by ko, if you have to ask, "Who has improved in the last 2-3 years?", I think it fair to say that Manny has, while Cotto has started his walk down hill.

    The weight, some will say benefits Manny because Cotto will have to make 45, thats b-s, Cotto weight 46 for his last fight and will have no problem making 45 for this fight.

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    I remember Cotto came into the Corley fight weighting 160 pounds. Corley was at 139. 21 pound difference. Almost lost by KO.

    This debate about two pounds is nonsense.

    Gordoom, no disrespect intended but, you sound like a guy scared to death for his favorite fighter. Already building up a wall that no amount of reason can penetrate. Come on. 2 pounds not a lot to ask of a p4p fighter. Be reasonable about this.

    Heck, he will probably enter the ring at 175 anyway.


    My pick. Pacquiao early. Pacquiao speed and finishing ability combined with Cotto chin and lack of defense will start the ballgame early. The corners will make a huge difference as well. I have no idea who is in Cotto's corner a/o how much experience they would have in fights of this magnitute. Nacho needs to be called in. Cotto in his last showing lost a close one in my opinion. He fought his best fight and did not impress. He moved and countered, cornered and punched, but still missed alot and took more flush shots than he gave. This was from a fighter that is not hard to figure out. Clottey is simply hard to keep away.

    Pacquiao is faster and a harder puncher than anyone Cotto has faced. Pacquiao moves better and can deal with boxer or punchers. Cotto had better box, because punching with Pacquaio is not the best plan for success.
    Last edited by JLP 6; 07-21-2009 at 04:20 PM.

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    JL

    What he enters the ring at is another discussion entirely.

    In his last fight, he weighed in at 146 pounds for the bout. He has to shave one pound off of that.

    I suspect that the reason he signed the contract was that he figured he could lose one more pound than he did for his last bout.

    To my point agian, if he loses, he better not cite weight as the reason though.

    Hawk

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    Re: JL

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    What he enters the ring at is another discussion entirely.

    In his last fight, he weighed in at 146 pounds for the bout. He has to shave one pound off of that.

    I suspect that the reason he signed the contract was that he figured he could lose one more pound than he did for his last bout.

    To my point agian, if he loses, he better not cite weight as the reason though.

    Hawk
    Hawk, do you remember that Cotto-Corley bout?

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    Yes

    Hawk

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    Outwieghed the guy by at least 15 pounds if not 20.

    Still, was almost KO'ed.

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    The point here though

    is getting to a certain weight by the weighin.

    He made 146 for his last fight. I beleive and I beleive HE beleives, he can make 145.

    Now the issue that many have re the weight stipulation is that getting DOWN to 145, will weaken and drain Cotto.

    No doubt he will weigh much more by fight night. But the question is, will he have weakened himself too much to have made the 145, 35 to 48 hours earlier.

    I'm of the opinion he'll be ok, but understand why others have an issue with it. The weight class is 147. THAT is what the weight should be for.

    BUUUUUUUUUT, Cotto did sign the contract, knows what weight he needs to make and if he loses, I don't want to hear any bitching about weight.

    He knows the deal. What he needs to shoot for. Start busting ass now.

    Hawk

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    Yep.

    Does not matter though. Pacquiao is in his evil prime. If Cotto cannot hurt Pacquiao early and often enough to dicourage him, I see a quick KO for Pacquaio or worst, a prolonged beating similar to the one Oscar took.

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    Gor, how the heck are Whitaker and Pacquao 'about the same size'??

    Pernell at 20 years old was already weighing in at 135. Manny at the same age was 112 POUNDS! 5 years later at 25 he only weighed 126. Manny is MUCH smaller than these huge welterweights of 2009. The size difference is more vast than Whitaker and Vasquez and as others have noted, Cotto is only being forced to weigh A POUND less than what he weighed in at for his last fight. That is basically an hour more in the sweat jacket.

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    Pac-Man by KO at any weight. Too fast and too good. Manny won't miss him often.

    Not excited about this catch-weight thing, but if you just think of it at a non-title fight, it's not a huge deal. Cotto isn't the champion.
    Last edited by prodigious1; 07-21-2009 at 08:14 PM.

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    Cotto was bothered by Mosley's movement, but was able to outjab him, which helped him control the fight till the later rounds when Cotto was hurt
    by a left hook that put Cotto in the retreat mode, Cotto has been hurt by lesser punchers then Sugar Shane, and took more punches then he should have in the Clottey fight, he is shopworn and Freddie knows it.
    Cotto would have to get out of the blocks early, and get his jab working, the problem is Pac has better movement, angles and a monster left hook, and a ferocious workrate, too much to overcome, Cotto coming down a bit in weight also gives a physical and psychological advantage to Pac,
    Pac TKO about round 7 or 8.

    Blame Margarito for robbing a man of his prime a bit......

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    You know what, Cotto is good but Pac is just a destroyer and has balls & heart bigger than just about anyone else's in the sport. I'm totally waffling and sticking with that he wins by KO.

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    Cotto scares me despite the fact that he has looked much sturdier at 147 than 40. But that guy who was sent down queer street by Corley and Barrios (it was Barrios, right?) doesn't survive as long as he did against Margie. I hate to disagree with my man Frank B. but I think Miguel is better than he was three years ago. Of course Pac is, too.

    I'm still picking Cotto by KO. Watching the Hatton and 2nd Marquez fight again, Manny is really freaking reckless...a lot. I think Cotto makes him pay, dearly.

    I'm with Gor on the weight thing as principle but Hawk as to the end game.

    I also wonder what happens if Manny was teleported back 30 years ago. If he gets by the Sanchez's, Pedroza's and Gomez's, then he's gotta move up and face an Arguello. Take on a past his prime welter in Palamino, move back down to take on the best at 140 in Pryor then back up to 145 to face Leonard or Hearns. I don't have any problem saying Manny is a GREAT fighter, he is. But could he have done this on CBS Sports Saturday or ABC's Wide World of? I don't see it.

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    I agree that Manny's a naturally smaller guy than Pea, but he was never a flyweight. He's a natural featherweight if there ever was one.

    At 112, he and his team were doing what we often accused Arturo Gatti of doing against guys like Joey Gamache--taking advantage of the day before weigh-ins to fight smaller guys.

    In truth, torturing himself to make that limit probably only hurt him. He's been a much better fighter since he started fighting at 122, a much more natural weight for him.

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    I am quite surprised with a lot of you guys who don't see much of an issue
    with this fight and it's "rules."

    Pea and Pac are similar in size and the difference between Pea and Vasquez IS
    IMO larger than Pac-Cotto.

    Pea moved up and won and didn't ask or GET conditions and favors
    He did it above board and proper.

    What bugs me is that this bout is being sold as a "World Title" fight with new rules now being implemented. The problem is that folks have no standards and the boxing world
    is a sham and the sport deserves a hell of a lot better. It's an insult to the sport.

    The belt or the words "World Tiltle" should be deleted here and NO
    title should be for grabs. It is not a title fight.

    BTW, one lb or two lbs, it's a difference and it does mean that
    one man is handicapped here. This man is being TOLD
    that he must now come in at a weight that he has not weighed for several years.
    Anyone who has ever had to make weight and sweat off the last few
    grams, never mind lbs, will understand the effect and the
    difference it can make on a fighter. Those who haven't
    had to do this cannot appreciate the impact as much

    Yes, Cotto agreed and that's that, but in general, to make out that
    this is a welter bout is inaccurate and wrong. It's not a welterweight
    bout, or a fair bout or a world title bout.

    So much too for health and safety. Cotto is every day getting
    older and more mature, and it is not simply a case of ONE
    extra lb. Time and maturity and weight gain play a part, so that
    ONE lb isn't the same today as it will be in 5 or 6 months
    Last edited by walshb; 07-22-2009 at 06:51 AM.

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    Quote Originally Posted by Husker
    I also wonder what happens if Manny was teleported back 30 years ago. If he gets by the Sanchez's, Pedroza's and Gomez's, then he's gotta move up and face an Arguello. Take on a past his prime welter in Palamino, move back down to take on the best at 140 in Pryor then back up to 145 to face Leonard or Hearns. I don't have any problem saying Manny is a GREAT fighter, he is. But could he have done this on CBS Sports Saturday or ABC's Wide World of? I don't see it.
    In those days, Pac would never have ventured past 130 lbs. He would have been
    hell for any man up to 126 and maybe 130, but the Pryor's and Leonard's and even Pea's would have been far too much I feel. Even at 130 lbs he had JCC and Nelson.

    Now, his nemesis, PBF, he could have gone to 140 and still have been close
    to the top

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    Ganch

    I'm complete agreement with you re your point about the Fly version of Manny.

    Ridculous abuse of his body that only hindered him and IMO probably held him back a few more years.

    Just becuase you CAN make a weight class by torturing yourself to get down that low, doesn't mean you should.

    I was not following his career back then and only have seen films years past when he was down that low, but you simply look at him in the ring and he was almost routinely gaunt, but at the same time bigger than his opponent.

    122 and above definitely was where he should have been all along during those early years.

    Hawk

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    When will they weight in ? Day of fight or day before ? Day before, Cotto comes in at 155 and will win anyway ... I don't like the fight for Paq and I'm surprised he is taking it ... this is not a shot, dried out Oscar or the over rated, soft chinned Hatton. Cotto can fight, is much bigger and I feel this is where Paq meets his Waterloo ...

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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    Quote Originally Posted by walshb
    I am quite surprised with a lot of you guys who don't see much of an issue
    with this fight and it's "rules."

    Pea and Pac are similar in size and the difference between Pea and Vasquez IS
    IMO larger than Pac-Cotto.

    Pea moved up and won and didn't ask or GET conditions and favors
    He did it above board and proper.

    What bugs me is that this bout is being sold as a "World Title" fight with new rules now being implemented. The problem is that folks have no standards and the boxing world
    is a sham and the sport deserves a hell of a lot better. It's an insult to the sport.

    The belt or the words "World Tiltle" should be deleted here and NO
    title should be for grabs. It is not a title fight.

    BTW, one lb or two lbs, it's a difference and it does mean that
    one man is handicapped here. This man is being TOLD
    that he must now come in at a weight that he has not weighed for several years.
    Anyone who has ever had to make weight and sweat off the last few
    grams, never mind lbs, will understand the effect and the
    difference it can make on a fighter. Those who haven't
    had to do this cannot appreciate the impact as much

    Yes, Cotto agreed and that's that, but in general, to make out that
    this is a welter bout is inaccurate and wrong. It's not a welterweight
    bout, or a fair bout or a world title bout.

    So much too for health and safety. Cotto is every day getting
    older and more mature, and it is not simply a case of ONE
    extra lb. Time and maturity and weight gain play a part, so that
    ONE lb isn't the same today as it will be in 5 or 6 months

    Nice job Walsh trying to discredit Pacquao so after he wins you can give him zero credit like you gave him zero credit for beating Oscar and Hatton. I have had to drain weight before and getting down ONE POUND lower than his last fight is not a big deal in the slightest. A person doesn't 'naturally gain weight' every year of his life. A man in his 20s should be able to stay the same weight at 28 he was at 23 . . might take a little extra effort but it can be done with proper diet and sticking to your road work. If Pacquao was forcing him down to 140 you'd have a point b/c Cotto looked sickly at the weigh-ins during his last few fights there, but 145 he should have no problem.

    And again, don't see how Whitaker who was weighing 135 as early as 20 years old is around the same size as Manny who was 112-122 and years later still at 126.

  30. #30
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    Re: Pacquiao-Cotto 11/14

    If the Cotto of pre AM shows up Pac is in for a long hard fight. If not Pac wins.

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